Rotation and Counter Rotation

"foot2foot" wrote in message
...

(good stuff sniped)

Have you ever investigated this move with any of
your students as a help to move from wedge to
parallel? If they understand home position, it can be
very effective, and the lift eventually goes away on
it's own. I'll make my kids hold their poles in front
of them horizontally. This *forces* them to hold
a decent body position, and the explanation of
it's importance, and how it works are easy to get
across to an eight year old or older.

Great question. It's been a lot of years since I was a coach. However,
I still remember the seemingly overwhelming obstacles regarding students
perceptions of their own expectations and abilities. I guess our
conversation would be best served by revealing my experiences with masters
skiers. These are skiers who are pretty damn good, yet seem to be stuck in
a plateau compared to where they aspire to be. Of course subjectivity is
trumpet by objective clock times in a race course. If you subscribe to the
theory that what gets you there fastest is bestest, then technical analysis
will continue to be supreme. I don't always necessarily agree. However,
skis are made to be carved, even if bumps are the main objective.
In many instances, good vertical parallel skiers have to start all
over. Vertical meaning they use too much vertical motion to initiate turns.
I'm sure you would agree that superior steering is the cure to many ills,
given that balance is satisfactory.
My greatest tool was to personally demonstrate to grown-up wannabe
racers the virtues of the non-breaking outside ski carving race wedge at
slow speeds and gradually morphing it into a recognizable faster and
acceptable "cool looking" ski technique. "Yes, if you continue to ski like
a wide track retard, but carving, you will eventually improve,,,,,,for
racing and otherwise". That's exactly how it happened for me as well as
many of my skiing peers; and all you have to do is keep your hands forward.
Back in 1985 I was head race coach at a small mountain by the name of
Belleayre Mountain in N.Y. I had a seven year old skier who was an
impeccable wide track pizza pie carver that stayed by my side all day for
continuous demonstrations to juniors and masters alike. The basic stance
teaches skiers to sit back but balance comparatively to the pressure on
their skis and actually feel a good solid carve on their outside turning
ski. A lot of youngsters do this naturally. My motto was "let the force of
the kid carving skills come to you!"
As far as the inside ski lift drill. Yes, I've done a lot of this in
the past; including for myself. We must balance as if skiing on one outside
ski. In my opinion, there is no better balancing drill. However, having
too much pressure on the outside ski is an even bigger detriment considering
newer ski technology. Two footed gradual balanced skiing from inside foot
to outside foot skiing with careful and determined upper body discipline is
what I advocate these days.

Rick Swanger

"Swanger" wrote in message


Great question. It's been a lot of years since I was a coach. However,
I still remember the seemingly overwhelming obstacles regarding students
perceptions of their own expectations and abilities. I guess our
conversation would be best served by revealing my experiences with masters
skiers. These are skiers who are pretty damn good, yet seem to be stuck
in
a plateau compared to where they aspire to be. Of course subjectivity is
trumpet by objective clock times in a race course. If you subscribe to
the
theory that what gets you there fastest is bestest, then technical
analysis
will continue to be supreme. I don't always necessarily agree. However,
skis are made to be carved, even if bumps are the main objective.
In many instances, good vertical parallel skiers have to start all
over. Vertical meaning they use too much vertical motion to initiate
turns.
I'm sure you would agree that superior steering is the cure to many ills,
given that balance is satisfactory.
My greatest tool was to personally demonstrate to grown-up wannabe
racers the virtues of the non-breaking outside ski carving race wedge at
slow speeds and gradually morphing it into a recognizable faster and
acceptable "cool looking" ski technique.

So, the only means of speed control would be the shape
of the turn, and the degree to which you carry the turn
out of the fall line, or back up the hill? You're after a 100
percent railing ski?

That's exactly how it happened for me as well as many of my
skiing peers; and all you have to do is keep your hands forward.

So, you would agree that the *number one* most
basic element of the mechanics of skiing would be
Home Position? The one that all others build upon,
without which none of the others will work?

Hands forward, slightly rounded shoulders, slightly
bent at the waist, able to pick up the tail of a ski,
and leave the tip on the snow.

That's home position.

Not that you always *are* picking up the tail of
the inside ski, only that you *are able to*. That is,
you are at least centered (fore and aft) on the skis,
if not farther forward. You can't lift the tail of a ski
and leave the tip on the snow from the back seat.


Back in 1985 I was head race coach at a small mountain by the name of
Belleayre Mountain in N.Y. I had a seven year old skier who was an
impeccable wide track pizza pie carver that stayed by my side all day for
continuous demonstrations to juniors and masters alike. The basic stance
teaches skiers to sit back but balance comparatively to the pressure on
their skis and actually feel a good solid carve on their outside turning
ski. A lot of youngsters do this naturally. My motto was "let the force
of
the kid carving skills come to you!"

As far as the inside ski lift drill. Yes, I've done a lot of this in
the past; including for myself. We must balance as if skiing on one
outside
ski. In my opinion, there is no better balancing drill.

However, having too much pressure on the outside ski is an even bigger
detriment considering newer ski technology.


Unless you've never, ever skied before, and you're an
adult. Yes?


Two footed gradual balanced
skiing from inside foot to outside foot skiing with careful and determined
upper body discipline is what I advocate these days.


Unless you've never, ever skied before, and you're an adult?

"foot2foot" wrote in message
...

"Swanger" wrote in message


Great question. It's been a lot of years since I was a coach.
However,
I still remember the seemingly overwhelming obstacles regarding students
perceptions of their own expectations and abilities. I guess our
conversation would be best served by revealing my experiences with
masters
skiers. These are skiers who are pretty damn good, yet seem to be stuck
in
a plateau compared to where they aspire to be. Of course subjectivity
is
trumpet by objective clock times in a race course. If you subscribe to
the
theory that what gets you there fastest is bestest, then technical
analysis
will continue to be supreme. I don't always necessarily agree.
However,
skis are made to be carved, even if bumps are the main objective.
In many instances, good vertical parallel skiers have to start all
over. Vertical meaning they use too much vertical motion to initiate
turns.
I'm sure you would agree that superior steering is the cure to many
ills,
given that balance is satisfactory.
My greatest tool was to personally demonstrate to grown-up wannabe
racers the virtues of the non-breaking outside ski carving race wedge at
slow speeds and gradually morphing it into a recognizable faster and
acceptable "cool looking" ski technique.

So, the only means of speed control would be the shape
of the turn, and the degree to which you carry the turn
out of the fall line, or back up the hill? You're after a 100
percent railing ski?

Well now, you got me good right there. That's exactly where my analysis
falls a little short. Yes, the most common means of speed control with the
carving wedge would be the shape of the turn along with the tempo of linking
the turns. I always cringe when it comes time for my carefully carving
students to come to a stop or have to brake for whatever reason. The
carving technique has to go right out the window. They use either a
breaking wedge or, if their able to, slam their skis sideways.

That's exactly how it happened for me as well as many of my
skiing peers; and all you have to do is keep your hands forward.

So, you would agree that the *number one* most
basic element of the mechanics of skiing would be
Home Position? The one that all others build upon,
without which none of the others will work?

Yes indeed.


Back in 1985 I was head race coach at a small mountain by the name of
Belleayre Mountain in N.Y. I had a seven year old skier who was an
impeccable wide track pizza pie carver that stayed by my side all day
for
continuous demonstrations to juniors and masters alike. The basic
stance
teaches skiers to sit back but balance comparatively to the pressure on
their skis and actually feel a good solid carve on their outside turning
ski. A lot of youngsters do this naturally. My motto was "let the
force
of
the kid carving skills come to you!"

As far as the inside ski lift drill. Yes, I've done a lot of this in
the past; including for myself. We must balance as if skiing on one
outside
ski. In my opinion, there is no better balancing drill.

However, having too much pressure on the outside ski is an even bigger
detriment considering newer ski technology.


Unless you've never, ever skied before, and you're an
adult. Yes?

Yes,,,the value of exageration can't be denied. Especially for learning.

Two footed gradual balanced
skiing from inside foot to outside foot skiing with careful and
determined
upper body discipline is what I advocate these days.


Unless you've never, ever skied before, and you're an adult?

Very much depending on the individual, the two-footed wide track,
slightly wedged stance can help an adult beginner since they want to be on
two feet anyway. Once the confidence is gained at the breaking wedge level,
I say keep them in that stance to get the feel of the outside ski making a
carve. Sure, they may be standing too much on the inside ski. However, the
faster and slightly steeper they go, the forces of gravity will naturally
and gradually move them from inside to outside footing,,,and back.
Thereby, learning transfer skills through down-weighting and not relying on
overt vertical up-weighting (that takes more balance). This is a very
gradual skill that a lot of aspiring racers have to relearn, especially if
they've done "too much" one legged skiing or two footed parallel skidding
and braking. Of course, with the wider wedged stance, balancing is
important but not as overwhelmingly important as taking a novice beginner to
parallel skiing. Parallel skiing, in my opinion is tougher to learn and
teach. My hats off to the teachers who consistently pull it off.

Rick Swanger

"Swanger" wrote in message
om...

"foot2foot" wrote in message
...

So, the only means of speed control would be the shape
of the turn, and the degree to which you carry the turn
out of the fall line, or back up the hill? You're after a 100
percent railing ski?

Well now, you got me good right there. That's exactly where my
analysis
falls a little short. Yes, the most common means of speed control with
the
carving wedge would be the shape of the turn along with the tempo of
linking
the turns. I always cringe when it comes time for my carefully carving
students to come to a stop or have to brake for whatever reason. The
carving technique has to go right out the window. They use either a
braking wedge or, if their able to, slam their skis sideways.

Can't you have them just carry the turn back up the hill to
a stop? They're all advanced enough to handle that.

So, you would agree that the *number one* most
basic element of the mechanics of skiing would be
Home Position? The one that all others build upon,
without which none of the others will work?

Yes indeed.

Cool.

I guess we've established that *nothing at all* will work
without Home Position. This sort of goes without saying,
but we said it. This would probably be the very first
thing you would teach any new student and the first
thing you would make sure any more advanced student
has, and understands.

Home position is *the most basic, essential* element
on the list of the elements of the mechanics of skiing,
in order from most basic, to more advanced and
precise.

What would be number two? The second element
without which *none* of the others will work. The
element that needs home position, but without which
none of the others below it on the list will work?

Which is number two?

As far as the inside ski lift drill. Yes, I've done a lot of this in
the past; including for myself. We must balance as if skiing on one
outside
ski. In my opinion, there is no better balancing drill.

However, having too much pressure on the outside ski is an even bigger
detriment considering newer ski technology.


Unless you've never, ever skied before, and you're an
adult. Yes?

Yes,,,the value of exageration can't be denied. Especially for learning.

Two footed gradual balanced
skiing from inside foot to outside foot skiing with careful and
determined
upper body discipline is what I advocate these days.


Unless you've never, ever skied before, and you're an adult?

Very much depending on the individual, the two-footed wide track,
slightly wedged stance can help an adult beginner since they want to be on
two feet anyway.

They do "want" to be on two feet, but once they see
how easy it is to turn on one, they don't want two
feet anymore.

It takes forever to get them to learn to turn on two
feet, and many quit, never coming back to the
mountain.

Learning the feel of 60/40, and to modulate the edging
of both skis, each doing different things, takes much
longer than simply initiating with the outside ski and
picking up the inside ski by the tail. In addition, if you
pick up the tail, you can not be in the back seat. Nothing
prevents a student from being and staying in the back
seat if a two footed wedge is taught at first and stuck
with. In fact, starting and keeping a beginner in a two
foot wedge for an extended time seems to encourage
back seat skiing.

Ultimately the student will need to learn to ski on one
foot anyway, for use in certain situations. Why not start
them out right away on only one? Why not let them
discover what all and none is first (a very easy thing
to do) and later move to more modulated distribution?

I've never seen anyone that can have half of every
class in a rough parallel that the students can take to
the blues after two hours of instruction, when a two
footed wedge alone is being taught.

This is done all the time with different variations of
the schrittbogen approach. Two hours, working
parallel, able to learn skiing the blues.

Have you ever *tried* teaching total newbies in
this way?


Once the confidence is gained at the braking wedge level,
I say keep them in that stance to get the feel of the outside ski making a
carve. Sure, they may be standing too much on the inside ski. However,
the
faster and slightly steeper they go, the forces of gravity will naturally
and gradually move them from inside to outside footing,,,and back.

But this will take forever, compared to a
schrittbogen approach, with a beginner.

Thereby, learning transfer skills through down-weighting and not relying
on
overt vertical up-weighting (that takes more balance). This is a very
gradual skill that a lot of aspiring racers have to relearn, especially if
they've done "too much" one legged skiing or two footed parallel skidding
and braking. Of course, with the wider wedged stance, balancing is
important but not as overwhelmingly important as taking a novice beginner
to
parallel skiing.

They can learn this almost instantly. No one has told
them they can't. The whole key is picking up the tail
of the inside ski, leaving the tip on the snow. That, and
Home Position.


Parallel skiing, in my opinion is tougher to learn and
teach. My hats off to the teachers who consistently pull it off.

But, schrittbogen (basically, picking up the tail of a ski
and leaving the tip on the snow) makes it *easy* for the
wedge turner to move to matching skis. Once they have
the idea of steering and matching of the inside ski, you
can get them to move to more of a two footed
technique.

A beginner can learn parallel in two hours. And half
of them out of every class do. This is because, a
parallel turn is actually *half* a wedge turn. Take the
wedge turn, cut it in half, you have a parallel turn,
be it skidded or carved. You can cut the turn in half
by taking all but the tip of the inside ski out of the
picture. Be it mostly a one footed turn, it's still a
parallel turn. Just ask Lito.

"foot2foot" wrote in message
...

"Swanger" wrote in message
om...

"foot2foot" wrote in message
...

So, the only means of speed control would be the shape
of the turn, and the degree to which you carry the turn
out of the fall line, or back up the hill? You're after a 100
percent railing ski?

Well now, you got me good right there. That's exactly where my
analysis
falls a little short. Yes, the most common means of speed control with
the
carving wedge would be the shape of the turn along with the tempo of
linking
the turns. I always cringe when it comes time for my carefully carving
students to come to a stop or have to brake for whatever reason. The
carving technique has to go right out the window. They use either a
braking wedge or, if their able to, slam their skis sideways.

Can't you have them just carry the turn back up the hill to
a stop? They're all advanced enough to handle that.

So, you would agree that the *number one* most
basic element of the mechanics of skiing would be
Home Position? The one that all others build upon,
without which none of the others will work?

Yes indeed.

Cool.

I guess we've established that *nothing at all* will work
without Home Position. This sort of goes without saying,
but we said it. This would probably be the very first
thing you would teach any new student and the first
thing you would make sure any more advanced student
has, and understands.

Home position is *the most basic, essential* element
on the list of the elements of the mechanics of skiing,
in order from most basic, to more advanced and
precise.

What would be number two? The second element
without which *none* of the others will work. The
element that needs home position, but without which
none of the others below it on the list will work?

Which is number two?

As far as the inside ski lift drill. Yes, I've done a lot of this
in
the past; including for myself. We must balance as if skiing on one
outside
ski. In my opinion, there is no better balancing drill.

However, having too much pressure on the outside ski is an even
bigger
detriment considering newer ski technology.


Unless you've never, ever skied before, and you're an
adult. Yes?

Yes,,,the value of exageration can't be denied. Especially for
learning.

Two footed gradual balanced
skiing from inside foot to outside foot skiing with careful and
determined
upper body discipline is what I advocate these days.


Unless you've never, ever skied before, and you're an adult?

Very much depending on the individual, the two-footed wide track,
slightly wedged stance can help an adult beginner since they want to be
on
two feet anyway.

They do "want" to be on two feet, but once they see
how easy it is to turn on one, they don't want two
feet anymore.

It takes forever to get them to learn to turn on two
feet, and many quit, never coming back to the
mountain.

Learning the feel of 60/40, and to modulate the edging
of both skis, each doing different things, takes much
longer than simply initiating with the outside ski and
picking up the inside ski by the tail. In addition, if you
pick up the tail, you can not be in the back seat. Nothing
prevents a student from being and staying in the back
seat if a two footed wedge is taught at first and stuck
with. In fact, starting and keeping a beginner in a two
foot wedge for an extended time seems to encourage
back seat skiing.

Ultimately the student will need to learn to ski on one
foot anyway, for use in certain situations. Why not start
them out right away on only one? Why not let them
discover what all and none is first (a very easy thing
to do) and later move to more modulated distribution?

I've never seen anyone that can have half of every
class in a rough parallel that the students can take to
the blues after two hours of instruction, when a two
footed wedge alone is being taught.

This is done all the time with different variations of
the schrittbogen approach. Two hours, working
parallel, able to learn skiing the blues.

Have you ever *tried* teaching total newbies in
this way?


Once the confidence is gained at the braking wedge level,
I say keep them in that stance to get the feel of the outside ski making
a
carve. Sure, they may be standing too much on the inside ski. However,
the
faster and slightly steeper they go, the forces of gravity will
naturally
and gradually move them from inside to outside footing,,,and back.

But this will take forever, compared to a
schrittbogen approach, with a beginner.

Thereby, learning transfer skills through down-weighting and not relying
on
overt vertical up-weighting (that takes more balance). This is a very
gradual skill that a lot of aspiring racers have to relearn, especially
if
they've done "too much" one legged skiing or two footed parallel
skidding
and braking. Of course, with the wider wedged stance, balancing is
important but not as overwhelmingly important as taking a novice
beginner
to
parallel skiing.

They can learn this almost instantly. No one has told
them they can't. The whole key is picking up the tail
of the inside ski, leaving the tip on the snow. That, and
Home Position.


Parallel skiing, in my opinion is tougher to learn and
teach. My hats off to the teachers who consistently pull it off.

But, schrittbogen (basically, picking up the tail of a ski
and leaving the tip on the snow) makes it *easy* for the
wedge turner to move to matching skis. Once they have
the idea of steering and matching of the inside ski, you
can get them to move to more of a two footed
technique.

A beginner can learn parallel in two hours. And half
of them out of every class do. This is because, a
parallel turn is actually *half* a wedge turn. Take the
wedge turn, cut it in half, you have a parallel turn,
be it skidded or carved. You can cut the turn in half
by taking all but the tip of the inside ski out of the
picture. Be it mostly a one footed turn, it's still a
parallel turn. Just ask Lito.

I hear you Foot. Good stuff,,,all of it. I would guarantee that your
beginner students would look better than mine. The sitting back you
mentioned, in my opinion, is okay even for intermediates and experts as long
as they have a good "home position" (it works well for the racers). The
parallel points you speak of is dead on as well. I just prefer to focus
more on the full arching carve of the turning ski with no emphasis on any
vertical motion to initiate a turn; only down weighting.
As far as what's number 2 on the list. Hmmmmm,,,,,,let me think about
that one;-)

Rick Swanger

On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 03:01:55 GMT, "Swanger"
wrote:

As far as what's number 2 on the list. Hmmmmm,,,,,,let me think about
that one;-)

I know.

Number 2 is how to quickly collect the rental equipment and get the
boots back in the skis after a yard sale...because they got lost and
forgot how to get back home!

-Astro

"AstroPax" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 03:01:55 GMT, "Swanger"
wrote:

As far as what's number 2 on the list. Hmmmmm,,,,,,let me think about
that one;-)

I know.

Number 2 is how to quickly collect the rental equipment and get the
boots back in the skis after a yard sale...because they got lost and
forgot how to get back home!

Good try Pee Wee,,lol,,, but that's wrong! Number 2 would be closer to the
number of eggs used in half a day in order to shingle half a dog house.

"foot2foot" wrote in message

"Swanger" Wrote in message

So, you would agree that the *number one* most
basic element of the mechanics of skiing would be
Home Position? The one that all others build upon,
without which none of the others will work?

Yes indeed.

What would be number two? The second element
without which *none* of the others will work. The
element that needs home position, but without which
none of the others below it on the list will work?


As far as what's number 2 on the list. Hmmmmm,,,,,,let me think about
that one;-)

Rick Swanger

Actually I'm voting for crossover. I can't think of anything
else more basic than that. So many people on the hill
actually don't realize, that if you want to turn right, your
body needs to be on the right side of the skis. Highly
accomplished instructors can't seem to think of things that
way, but it's the simplest truth about skiing.

The reason I come back to it now and then is because
I think it's really important for everyone that skis to
realize this. If they don't they'll never know why they
have trouble with their skiing, or why they fall.

foot2foot wrote:

Actually I'm voting for crossover. I can't think of anything
else more basic than that. So many people on the hill
actually don't realize, that if you want to turn right, your
body needs to be on the right side of the skis. Highly
accomplished instructors can't seem to think of things that
way, but it's the simplest truth about skiing.

The reason I come back to it now and then is because
I think it's really important for everyone that skis to
realize this. If they don't they'll never know why they
have trouble with their skiing, or why they fall.

That's an easy one - you just do a vector diagram on the blackboard and
make some reasonable estimates as to the deformation modulus for the
skis, add in side cut, and you can accurately calculate the cg-boot
vector angle from vertical.

Really. I'm serious.

I was trying to teach a physicist friend to ski and getting nowhere. At
lunch I did some vector diagrams on a napkin, and that afternoon without
further ado he could turn.

Just have to speak the student's language. Actually the PSIA knows this
full well, but it doesn't include a broad enough definition of learning
styles to cover this case.

lal_truckee writes:

foot2foot wrote:

Actually I'm voting for crossover. I can't think of anything
else more basic than that. So many people on the hill
actually don't realize, that if you want to turn right, your
body needs to be on the right side of the skis. Highly
accomplished instructors can't seem to think of things that
way, but it's the simplest truth about skiing.

The reason I come back to it now and then is because
I think it's really important for everyone that skis to
realize this. If they don't they'll never know why they
have trouble with their skiing, or why they fall.

That's an easy one - you just do a vector diagram on the blackboard and
make some reasonable estimates as to the deformation modulus for the
skis, add in side cut, and you can accurately calculate the cg-boot
vector angle from vertical.

Really. I'm serious.

I was trying to teach a physicist friend to ski and getting nowhere. At
lunch I did some vector diagrams on a napkin, and that afternoon without
further ado he could turn.

Just have to speak the student's language. Actually the PSIA knows this
full well, but it doesn't include a broad enough definition of learning
styles to cover this case.

Well, yeah, that's one learning style. IME, it's not the most
common learning style that you encounter among people learning
physical skills, but it's there. Intellectual/analytical
explanations work great with these types of people, the lengthier
the better. They don't work so well for a lot of people.

--
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield,
Other days you're the bug.