Crossover and Crossunder

foot2foot wrote:
"Dave M" wrote in message

Ahhhh, but there is certripital force which often makes us think we feel
the phantom force acting centrifugally. Or something like that that I
learned in Physics a long time ago. I think I could still explain it on a
chalkboard with vector lines and such.

Dave M.

Foot still doesn't buy inertial frames of reference, prefering fixed
vertical axis defdined by a gravity vector.



Centripetal is the force(s) that acts to oppose inertia. For
instance, the string that holds the ball it's attached to as you
twirl the whole assembly in a circle.

Centrifugal force is simply inertia.

Well, that's erroneous.

But ignoring that statement, how do you explain someone skiing the side
wall of a gully (or, if you are someone with no ski history prior to
snowboardering, someone skiing a pipe) who, due to relative vertical
which is the sum of gravity vector and centripetal force vectors, never
"crosses over" the gravity vertical while pulling g's down a single wall?

VtSkier wrote:

ant wrote:

yunlong wrote:


In my SKI magazine's "Encyclopedia of Skiing," published in 1970 by
Universal Publishing and Distributing Co., has no mentioned of
"falling leaf" maneuver, in fact, the term is not even in the
glossary.



Well in my copy of "The Complete Encyclopedia of Skiing" Third Edition
published in 1999 by Bob Barnes, it says under "falling leaf" the
following:

"Falling leaf is an exercise in which the skier side-slips diagonally
forward, then diagonally backward down the slope, prmarily by
adjusting the pressure forward and back on the skis. It is an
excellent exercise for tuning fore/aft balance (finding the
"sweet-spot") and developing sensitivity to the effects of "leverage".
It also develops a refined feel for edge control and edge release".

ant


Hmmm, what I've been saying all along, or I think I have, it gets
confusing sometimes. Does the Encyclopedia have anything to say
about where skier weight is to get the desired effect of side-
slipping forward then backward?

Good god almighty, do people really need to be told??? I mean, for
god's sake, it's like instructing someone in the basic mechanics of how
to coordinate their arms and legs when they're trying to ride a bicycle!
If you can't figure out some basic things about the foot bone
connected to the leg bone and so on, you ought to be working on learning
to walk, not learning to ski. Diagonally forward, then diagonally
backward. Make 'em go this way, then make 'em go that way. If someone
needs to be told the details of how to make 'em go, obviously this
exercise is too advanced for them.

Weenies, weenies, WEENIES!!!

--
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield, other days you're the bug.

ant wrote:
VtSkier wrote:

ant wrote:

yunlong wrote:



In my SKI magazine's "Encyclopedia of Skiing," published in 1970 by
Universal Publishing and Distributing Co., has no mentioned of
"falling leaf" maneuver, in fact, the term is not even in the
glossary.


Well in my copy of "The Complete Encyclopedia of Skiing" Third
Edition published in 1999 by Bob Barnes, it says under "falling
leaf" the following: "Falling leaf is an exercise in which the skier
side-slips diagonally
forward, then diagonally backward down the slope, prmarily by
adjusting the pressure forward and back on the skis. It is an
excellent exercise for tuning fore/aft balance (finding the
"sweet-spot") and developing sensitivity to the effects of
"leverage". It also develops a refined feel for edge control and
edge release". ant

Hmmm, what I've been saying all along, or I think I have, it gets
confusing sometimes. Does the Encyclopedia have anything to say
about where skier weight is to get the desired effect of side-
slipping forward then backward? He says "adjusting the pressure
forward and back on the skis." But doesn't specify which way does
which. I'm really sure I know, but I'd like to hear it from
someone else.


No, just what I quoted. I guess adjusting pressure means either applying it,
or reducing it.

ant

I got that much, but want a second opinion (in addition to
mine) about which direction of pressure provides what results.
What is your opinion?

Norm? Alan? How 'bout it guys, what direction of pressure
gets the tips/tails going in what direction?

VtSkier

foot2foot wrote:
"VtSkier" wrote in message

Swear t'god. What I've described is just what I've observed.
Remember this is an observation, not a teaching drill. None
of it is useful or effective. It's just what I've seen.

Yea, but, a person does need to be crossed over, else
they'll fall. Even the tiniest bit, nonetheless they are and/or
need to be.

Yeah but, trouble is they don't fall "every time". Which if
they did, it would be a dis-incentive to continue in that
mode.

Vt, you could get every one of these new skiers down, with
a minimum or even absence of falling, and in fact, quite
possibly have them skiing in rough parallel by the time they
get down. By the time they get down they'll *really be psyched*.
Up, not out. They'll be back the next day for first beginner
chair.

Given the time of day and the need to "encourage" other
beginner skiers down, it just isn't in the cards. Trouble
is, these folks are doing something they just shouldn't be
doing, at a time most inconvenient to themselves (night
is rapidly approaching) and others (there are lots of
beginners (not never-evers)) trying to get down the hill.

These beginners (not never-evers) have quite a bit more
skill and their problem is more being intimidated by the
fact that the green trails are now blue and encouragement
is really all they need, along with a few tips about using
the bumps to slow down instead of allowing the bumps to
knock them down.

I occasionally give "tips" to people on the hill to try to
help them have more fun. I can't take the time to offer
"drills" to get a turn down pat.

This all, if you show them how the unshakably simple turn
I've described works. Easy to do, easy to teach.

Traverse, set the edge, transfer the weight to the outside ski,
match the skis by just a tiny lift of the inside ski tail, repeat. Stay
in home position, if you lose balance regain it by getting home
position back using abs and arms. Hands forward *always,
every second*.

Sounds EXTREMELY familiar. In fact it's pretty much the way
I ski. The inside ski doesn't come up all that often and lots
of the time I'm in the fall line doing relatively short, linked
turns, but the basis is there. Unweighting, if any with these
nifty new style skis, is usually "up" since that enhances
edge release.

Watch them and explain what it was they didn't do that time.
Just keep hammering on those simple points. This is how
the turn is actually done, not some nebulous theory. Before
long, they will have made successful turns, before much longer
they will have the whole thing.

Again as I said, I usually don't have time to "hammer" on
the mechanics as you put it. I did some drills with a friend
who, while a pretty good and extremely fast skier on groomed,
is totally intimidated by bumps. After half an hour I had
him having fun with the bumps (spring snow is so forgiving),
even though his bump skill was not anywhere equal to his
groomer skill.

If they're not getting the big toe edge, it's because they
aren't pushing on the ball of the foot, they don't have
enough knee angulation, or the boots don't fit. Even if
the boots don't fit, they could still get the job done with
the feet by pushing on the big toe ball of the foot and
using enough knee angulation.

Teach on. Respond on.

There will be some nutso poasts to this ng this summer. At
some point in late August there will be a post with the subject
"It's here" referring to getting "Powder" magazine. This
seems to be when we all start settling down and getting some
hope that winter will return.

VtSkier

foot2foot wrote:
"Dave M" wrote in message

Ahhhh, but there is certripital force which often makes us think we feel
the phantom force acting centrifugally. Or something like that that I
learned in Physics a long time ago. I think I could still explain it on a
chalkboard with vector lines and such.

Dave M.


Centripetal is the force(s) that acts to oppose inertia. For
instance, the string that holds the ball it's attached to as you
twirl the whole assembly in a circle.

Centrifugal force is simply inertia.

Agreed, but with angular momentum.

Mary Malmros wrote:
VtSkier wrote:

ant wrote:

yunlong wrote:


In my SKI magazine's "Encyclopedia of Skiing," published in 1970 by
Universal Publishing and Distributing Co., has no mentioned of
"falling leaf" maneuver, in fact, the term is not even in the
glossary.




Well in my copy of "The Complete Encyclopedia of Skiing" Third
Edition published in 1999 by Bob Barnes, it says under "falling leaf"
the following:

"Falling leaf is an exercise in which the skier side-slips diagonally
forward, then diagonally backward down the slope, prmarily by
adjusting the pressure forward and back on the skis. It is an
excellent exercise for tuning fore/aft balance (finding the
"sweet-spot") and developing sensitivity to the effects of
"leverage". It also develops a refined feel for edge control and edge
release".

ant



Hmmm, what I've been saying all along, or I think I have, it gets
confusing sometimes. Does the Encyclopedia have anything to say
about where skier weight is to get the desired effect of side-
slipping forward then backward?


Good god almighty, do people really need to be told??? I mean, for
god's sake, it's like instructing someone in the basic mechanics of how
to coordinate their arms and legs when they're trying to ride a bicycle!
If you can't figure out some basic things about the foot bone connected
to the leg bone and so on, you ought to be working on learning to walk,
not learning to ski. Diagonally forward, then diagonally backward.
Make 'em go this way, then make 'em go that way. If someone needs to be
told the details of how to make 'em go, obviously this exercise is too
advanced for them.

Weenies, weenies, WEENIES!!!

Mary, I heart your posts. They bring us so much closer to
reality.

"lal_truckee" wrote in message
m...
yunlong wrote:
Norm wrote:

It was named after, um, a falling leaf, which is the action it
mimics.


nevertheless, it was snowboarders who adopted the name for that
particular maneuver, as a part of normal snowboarding.

HeySusss.
Is there something in your environment that particularly makes you stupid?

You are talking about something done and named decades before
snowboardering was invented.

If you have no historical background in skiing history it would behoove
you to listen and learn instead of persisting in a public display of
ignorance.

SShhh! I was kind of enjoying it.

lal_truckee wrote:
yunlong wrote:
Norm wrote:

It was named after, um, a falling leaf, which is the action
it mimics.

nevertheless, it was snowboarders who adopted the name for
that particular maneuver, as a part of normal snowboarding.

HeySusss.

Heyboringlittleknowledge,

Is there something in your environment that particularly makes you
stupid?

Kind of like what happens when you live in a remote rundown little town
thinking yourself one great skier who knows them all, but in reality?


You are talking about something done and named decades before
snowboardering was invented.

You are talking about something done and named decades before
modern downhill skiing [guess that the "modern downhill" qualifier for
"skiing" is necessary for some partition-minded to know the subject
involved] was invented.

And just because that "something done and named decades before" doesn't
mean there's nothing new there.

Most of snowboarders beyond beginner level know how to do "falling
leaf"; the question is, how many of advanced skiers can do it?


If you have no historical background in skiing history

One doesn't have to have "historical background in skiing history" to
know how to ski, and skiing is excelled by technical/physical know-how
and discipline, not in mouthing the skiing history.

it would behoove you to listen and learn instead of persisting
in a public display of ignorance.

"From what I gather, you don't jump, can't do superpipe, can neither
ski straight nor spin, but in a perpetuated wiggles, you think you are
one great skier who knows all about skiing? Yup, thanks for being such
a fine example of conceited little knowledge."

Perhaps you should heed your own advice?

IS

In article .com,
"yunlong" wrote:

lal_truckee wrote:
yunlong wrote:
Norm wrote:

It was named after, um, a falling leaf, which is the action
it mimics.

nevertheless, it was snowboarders who adopted the name for
that particular maneuver, as a part of normal snowboarding.

HeySusss.

Heyboringlittleknowledge,

Is there something in your environment that particularly makes you
stupid?

Kind of like what happens when you live in a remote rundown little town
thinking yourself one great skier who knows them all, but in reality?


You are talking about something done and named decades before
snowboardering was invented.

You are talking about something done and named decades before
modern downhill skiing [guess that the "modern downhill" qualifier for
"skiing" is necessary for some partition-minded to know the subject
involved] was invented.

And just because that "something done and named decades before" doesn't
mean there's nothing new there.

Most of snowboarders beyond beginner level know how to do "falling
leaf"; the question is, how many of advanced skiers can do it?


If you have no historical background in skiing history

One doesn't have to have "historical background in skiing history" to
know how to ski, and skiing is excelled by technical/physical know-how
and discipline, not in mouthing the skiing history.

it would behoove you to listen and learn instead of persisting
in a public display of ignorance.

"From what I gather, you don't jump, can't do superpipe, can neither
ski straight nor spin, but in a perpetuated wiggles, you think you are
one great skier who knows all about skiing? Yup, thanks for being such
a fine example of conceited little knowledge."

Perhaps you should heed your own advice?

IS

I notice you've withdrawn from discussing this point with Norm and me.

Could that be because you realize that we know what we're talking
about...

....unlike yourself. g

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect
if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

yunlong wrote:

And just because that "something done and named decades before" doesn't
mean there's nothing new there.

Most of snowboarders beyond beginner level know how to do "falling
leaf"; the question is, how many of advanced skiers can do it?

All the ones I've ever seen. I see people do it all the time. They
just don't do it all the way down the hill, except in the case of racers
who are slipping a course, in which case they might.

yunlong, you're a green belt. The greenest of green belts. You've just
discovered these things, and in your newbie enthusiasm, you keep trying
to teach your grandparents to suck eggs. It's embarrassing to watch.

"Nobody knows as much about karate as a green belt. Just ask one."

--
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield, other days you're the bug.