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#31
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BrritSki wrote: Mary Malmros wrote: BrritSki wrote: I was talking about my apology for that remark. I never saw it here. Can you point me at it? My reply to you in the fallback options thread, 1/12, 17.36, penultimate paragraph: Right. Okay, then, apology accepted. Now, may I suggest that if you want to continue talking about Iraq and WMDs, we take it offline? I know it's out of fashion, but it is ski season here in the northern realms, and we might want to let RSA get on with its ostensible purpose. |
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#32
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bk wrote: "VtSkier" wrote in message ... bk wrote: Skiing in Vt this winter. Have only been to Co a few times and always in spring. The local shops here tell me that We'll be fine with our shell type jackets / pants with lt wt chilis and fleece. Is this correct? Typical clothing for VT skiing from VtSkier In addition to proper equipment for EasternFirm(tm) conditions: Base: Lightweight long johns & tee in polyester or polypro Shell ski pants, usually multi-layer but not insulated mid-layer of lightweight fleece pull-over and vest (the vest is one of many, usually NF Denali). Shell parka, good gloves, neck gaiter (usually, but always in my pocket) and hat/helmet and goggles. If it's cold (below 10 deg F) add fleece pants over long johns and under shell pants (duh!). I also have a packable thinsulate jacket which goes under my shell parka. Sometimes this goes over vest if it's RealyCold(tm). At that point mittens replace gloves and I add a face mask. I will also add a helmet liner below 10 deg. The second paragraph list has protected me well to 25 degrees below zero. Anything colder I sit out by the fire. Well, considering that I will be coming from a life time spent in Miami, I can understand sitting by the fire when below 25 degrees. I might be sitting there for anything much below mid teens. OUCH! Those temps gotta hurt. They do, but you acclimate. You'll have to, since there isn't that much skiing above 25 degrees in winter here. Just don't wear any cotton, eat a good breakfast before you go out, and learn to recognize when it's time to go in and warm up. You'll get the hang of it quickly enough. |
#33
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foot2foot wrote:
snipped Tell me of the spray on coating that works as well as a "fabric created of materials and in such a way that it passes water as a liquid but not a vapor" , snipped Foot, I don't think that paragraph says exactly what you meant to say? C. |
#34
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Mary Malmros wrote:
BrritSki wrote: Mary Malmros wrote: BrritSki wrote: I was talking about my apology for that remark. I never saw it here. Can you point me at it? My reply to you in the fallback options thread, 1/12, 17.36, penultimate paragraph: Right. Okay, then, apology accepted. Fine, thanks. Now, may I suggest that if you want to continue talking about Iraq and WMDs, we take it offline? No need, I made the point I wanted to. |
#35
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"CParker" wrote in message ... foot2foot wrote: snipped Tell me of the spray on coating that works as well as a "fabric created of materials and in such a way that it passes water as a liquid but not a vapor" , snipped Foot, I don't think that paragraph says exactly what you meant to say? C. Yea, I hate when I do that. And I proofread and everything. CP, let me try another way. I'm sitting here looking at the label of a set of Columbia waterproof breatheable pants. The have the little pic on the tag, nylon liner, so labeled, nylon shell so labeled, and waterproof breathable "hydro vent" *membrane* in the middle. So labeled. Should that be two L's? Everyone that *makes* these various iterations of the waterproof breatheable "layer?" seems to call it a membrane. I do not know of any spray on coating that will perform as well as such a gore tex style membrane that passes water as a vapor, but not as a liquid. Sure, the spray on top might help the cause, but it can't do the same job all by itself. Ya need the membrane. Thanks for the reply, BTW. |
#36
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VtSkier wrote: bk wrote: Skiing in Vt this winter. Have only been to Co a few times and always in spring. The local shops here tell me that We'll be fine with our shell type jackets / pants with lt wt chilis and fleece. Is this correct? Typical clothing for VT skiing from VtSkier In addition to proper equipment for EasternFirm(tm) conditions: Base: Lightweight long johns & tee in polyester or polypro Shell ski pants, usually multi-layer but not insulated mid-layer of lightweight fleece pull-over and vest (the vest is one of many, usually NF Denali). Shell parka, good gloves, neck gaiter (usually, but always in my pocket) and hat/helmet and goggles. If it's cold (below 10 deg F) add fleece pants over long johns and under shell pants (duh!). I also have a packable thinsulate jacket which goes under my shell parka. Sometimes this goes over vest if it's RealyCold(tm). At that point mittens replace gloves and I add a face mask. I will also add a helmet liner below 10 deg. The second paragraph list has protected me well to 25 degrees below zero. Anything colder I sit out by the fire. anything colder and i'm usually afraid my cracked fan belt will snap off, or the power steering hose will break or the battery will fail. shudder. the only tip i'll add is about gloves/mittens. i can't stand mittens because i can't do a damn thing with them and yet i always have to fumble for zippers or keys or kleenex or whatnot. problem is, they're warmer than gloves. i find the ideal combination is thin gloves (preferably with rubberized spots for grip) within leather mittens (not insulated). when it gets really, really cold -- and if you've never felt your nostrils start to freeze and squeeze together by itself, nor felt the cheek muscles on your face start to harden, you have no idea what "cold" can mean -- the glove/mitten combo is the best way to keep your fingers from freezing when you have to take the mittens off to get things done. |
#37
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"Sven Golly" wrote in message 4.119... "foot2foot" wrote in : I think we should take the membranes out of your kidneys and spray some coating in there and see what you think then. Well since you've gone to ad hom, I'll return the favor. You're an idiot. Ah, I didn't mean to set you off, I'm just joking. There. Now, I have NO idea WTF you were rambling on about. In fact, I'm think your reading skills are seriously impaired. The membrane (some manufacturers call it a layer) can be made of anything. It can be a coating that's sprayed onto a fabric substrate. Huh uh. A coating is a coating. A membrane is a membrane. Call it laminate if you want. It can be stretched teflon that's laminated to a fabric (Gore-Tex). It can be a liquid poly that's floated onto a substrate. Now, *that's* a bit interesting, what's this liquid poly? A coating? All it has to do is pass water vapor in out and prevent water from getting in. Yes. Toray makes Entrant DT in both a laminate and coating form with about the same breathability. http://www.torayentrant.com/ent_dt/ent_dt.html Now here's a nice little table that shows you how various types of Toray's coatings and laminates perform. http://www.torayentrant.com/spec/spec.html Do you have anything besides their propaganda? Now when you add to this the other mfg's who do stuff that's actually woven into the fabric with equivalent waterproof/breathability ratings, For instance? you have big universe of ways to skin a cat. Or make fabric waterproof & breathable. To this day, I've been utterly disappointed by "coatings". I've had good luck with what you call a "laminate", which the people who make the very same call a *membrane*. Point me to one manufacturer who calls his "coating" (only a coating) a "membrane"? -- Sven Golly Trolling as usual Yah sure, oubetcha Remove the _ to reply |
#38
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Sven Golly wrote:
Snip informed comment Goodness, does this mean that f2f's full of **** ? |
#39
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"Sven Golly" wrote in message . 11... "foot2foot" wrote in : Do you have anything besides their propaganda? Do you have anything at all other than your jibber jabber? So you don't. Sorry you don't like the info from Toray. They supply WPB fabrics to a LOT of major alpine apparel manufacturers including Lowe, Marmot, Oh please. They're potentially biased toward their own product. You must admit, you haven't supplied any independent evaluation of these spray on things. What I'm trying to say is that in my own experience, what you call a laminate, which if you look through the garment, you can clearly see, a whitish layer of whatever fabric which passes water as a vapor not a liquid, works better than spray on stuff by itself. Not that my opinion isn't open to change, I haven't seen it yet. Now when you add to this the other mfg's who do stuff that's actually woven into the fabric with equivalent waterproof/breathability ratings, For instance? Treated microfibers What do you mean treated microfibers? and some coatings which are fused all the way into the material. Uh huh, what do you mean by that? You're getting wayyyy too wrapped up in semantics. Manufacturers call will call coatings and laminates whatever the marketing folks decide to call them. There is no industry standard definition. Actually, you're the one that jumped all over my semantics in your first reply, not vice versa. And you've just said that your semantics have no accepted meaning either. Point me to one manufacturer who calls his "coating" (only a coating) What's with this "only a coating" definition of yours? No "laminate", only typical nylon with some liquid type junk sprayed onto it. I know you provided the toray stuff, maybe things have changed, but anytime I've used something with a spray on stuff purported to do the same thing as a "laminate", I was disappointed. That's what I was trying to tell the poster. Almost any waterproof/breathable garment that's worth a damn will have a fabric base, DWR finish (durable water repellent) and some kind of membrane, coating, laminate or construction (use whatever term you like) that creates the vapor transmission layer. A membrane can be a coating, a film or a laminate. The idea is that it acts as a vapor transmission layer. It's a one way deal. You just said yourself there's no industry standard for the definition of membrane. "membrane"? Marmot - "MemBrain" (which is made by Toray) - It's actually a microdot film coating -- sort of like silkscreen printing - and not a true laminate (even though they call it one). Do they spray it on, or bond it because it already exists as a film? HydroVent - It used to be used by North Face but now appears to be a Pacific Trail exclusive. You'll see it referred to as a membrane. I'm 90% sure it's a bonded film coating (at least it was when North Face used it). But, you can look inside the garment and see the white stuff right in there.....can't ya? HellyTech - Comes in both a coating form and a bonded film. Both achieve the same level of waterproofing / breathability. Hmm, I've never seen anything but the white stuff. Entrant - From the manufacturer - "Three layers of lamination or coating consist of fabric, membrane and tricot backing. Hmmmm they seem to be calling membrane lamination or coating. They are necessary, in order to improve the durability of the fabric. Tricot is applied to the membrane and not directly to the fabric. These three layers do not require an additional lining. This is ideal for non-bulky, lightweight thin performance garments that are mostly preferred for activewear." So what's Tricot? Note how they refer to the membrane as either lamination or coating. Yea. By the way, Columbia's WPB stuff is a coating of one sort or another. To my knowledge, they don't do any laminates. I'm looking right at the white gore texish layer in between the shell and the mesh liner. Few years old Columbia. Looks just like the same gore tex helly tech hydro vent white layer between the lining and the shell that's permeable to water as a vapor but not as a liquid that I and the ones that make the garment call a membrane. Now you're beginning to make me doubt you really know what you're saying after all, even though you make a fairly impressive presentation. The latest things in fabric tech are plasma micro sprayed coatings and new chemical liquids that bond into microfibers that can outperform GoreTex. If it try it, and it lasts and it works, I'll go with it. With what's available today, at reasonable prices, I'll go with your "laminate" which three mfrs call a membrane. Keep in mind that all of this ****e depends totally on the application. There is no one best solution. For highly aerobic activities in very cold weather, you may not want ANY water barrier at all Unless it's raining? And you don't have a warm house to go to for a while after you're done with excercise? In other words, if you have to stay relatively dry, despite the fact that you're excercising? And there's wet stuff coming down? (ie. soft shell) other than the DWR. Some fabrics use wicking to move moisture -- others depend on vapor transmission. I dunno, it's interesting what you're posting, I only have experience with reasonably priced stuff like hydro vent, helly tech, or gore tex, you can look right in there and see the white layer in between the lining and shell, and stuff claiming to be waterproof breathable that is only a sprayed on substance. For me the white layer had worked, the sprayed on stuff alone has not. I've never seen Helly Tech in anything other than a "laminate". I've never seen Gore Tex in anything other than a "laminate". I'm looking right at the pants that say Hydro Vent, it's clearly a "laminate", which I call a membrane, which they all call a membrane. So, I dunno Sven... I'm *still* going to recommend to this poster that he get a garment that has a distinct obvious middle layer of laminate/ membrane/fabric what ever, white stuff, which is designed to pass water as a vapor, but not as a liquid, as opposed to a purely nylon garment that's been sprayed with a coating which *claims* to be waterproof yet breathable. In the price ranges we were talking, I think that's good advice. Yea if you start to get into some of this brand new stuff for 500 bucks a jacket, maybe there is something to a spray, film, or some new alteratives to what has worked very well, a distinct middle layer of whatever white stuff designed to be waterproof breatheable. To be quite honest, if I wanted down to earth, simple useful, sensible advice on the best bargain on ski/winter clothing, I'm not sure I'd want to talk to you, you seem to be a little too close to the sales aspect of the industry |
#40
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I hear that the only real requirement is that cloths be clean. Who
cares as long as they're not covered in dog**** or peanut butter or any other matter of crustyness. I hear that on ebay they have rules about crusty **** being sold. But I've read a bunch of reviews about people receiving dirty ****. What's up with that? |
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