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  #31  
Old December 7th 05, 01:42 AM
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BrritSki wrote:
Mary Malmros wrote:



BrritSki wrote:


I was talking about my apology for that remark.




I never saw it here. Can you point me at it?

My reply to you in the fallback options thread, 1/12, 17.36, penultimate
paragraph:


Right. Okay, then, apology accepted.

Now, may I suggest that if you want to continue talking about Iraq and
WMDs, we take it offline? I know it's out of fashion, but it is ski
season here in the northern realms, and we might want to let RSA get on
with its ostensible purpose.

Ads
  #32  
Old December 7th 05, 01:46 AM
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bk wrote:

"VtSkier" wrote in message
...

bk wrote:

Skiing in Vt this winter. Have only been to Co a few times and always in
spring.
The local shops here tell me that We'll be fine with our shell type
jackets / pants with lt wt chilis and fleece. Is this correct?


Typical clothing for VT skiing from VtSkier
In addition to proper equipment for EasternFirm(tm) conditions:
Base: Lightweight long johns & tee in polyester or polypro
Shell ski pants, usually multi-layer but not insulated
mid-layer of lightweight fleece pull-over and vest
(the vest is one of many, usually NF Denali).
Shell parka, good gloves, neck gaiter (usually, but
always in my pocket) and hat/helmet and goggles.

If it's cold (below 10 deg F) add fleece pants over
long johns and under shell pants (duh!).
I also have a packable thinsulate jacket which goes
under my shell parka. Sometimes this goes over vest
if it's RealyCold(tm). At that point mittens replace
gloves and I add a face mask. I will also add a
helmet liner below 10 deg.

The second paragraph list has protected me well to
25 degrees below zero. Anything colder I sit out
by the fire.



Well, considering that I will be coming from a life time spent in Miami, I
can understand sitting by the fire when below 25 degrees. I might be sitting
there for anything much below mid teens. OUCH! Those temps gotta hurt.


They do, but you acclimate. You'll have to, since there isn't that much
skiing above 25 degrees in winter here. Just don't wear any cotton, eat
a good breakfast before you go out, and learn to recognize when it's
time to go in and warm up. You'll get the hang of it quickly enough.

  #33  
Old December 7th 05, 03:08 AM
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foot2foot wrote:

snipped
Tell me of the spray on coating that works as well as a
"fabric created of materials and in such a way that it
passes water as a liquid but not a vapor" ,

snipped

Foot, I don't think that paragraph says exactly what you meant to say?

C.
  #34  
Old December 7th 05, 08:34 AM
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Mary Malmros wrote:


BrritSki wrote:

Mary Malmros wrote:



BrritSki wrote:


I was talking about my apology for that remark.




I never saw it here. Can you point me at it?

My reply to you in the fallback options thread, 1/12, 17.36,
penultimate paragraph:



Right. Okay, then, apology accepted.

Fine, thanks.

Now, may I suggest that if you want to continue talking about Iraq and
WMDs, we take it offline?

No need, I made the point I wanted to.

  #35  
Old December 7th 05, 08:38 AM
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"CParker" wrote in message
...
foot2foot wrote:

snipped
Tell me of the spray on coating that works as well as a
"fabric created of materials and in such a way that it
passes water as a liquid but not a vapor" ,

snipped

Foot, I don't think that paragraph says exactly what you meant to say?

C.


Yea, I hate when I do that. And I proofread and everything.

CP, let me try another way. I'm sitting here looking at the label of a
set of Columbia waterproof breatheable pants. The have the little
pic on the tag, nylon liner, so labeled, nylon shell so labeled, and
waterproof breathable "hydro vent" *membrane* in the middle.
So labeled. Should that be two L's?

Everyone that *makes* these various iterations of the
waterproof breatheable "layer?" seems to call it a membrane.
I do not know of any spray on coating that will perform as well as
such a gore tex style membrane that passes water as a vapor, but
not as a liquid. Sure, the spray on top might help the cause, but it
can't do the same job all by itself. Ya need the membrane.

Thanks for the reply, BTW.



  #36  
Old December 10th 05, 06:00 AM
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VtSkier wrote:
bk wrote:
Skiing in Vt this winter. Have only been to Co a few times and always in
spring.
The local shops here tell me that We'll be fine with our shell type jackets
/ pants with lt wt chilis and fleece. Is this correct?


Typical clothing for VT skiing from VtSkier
In addition to proper equipment for EasternFirm(tm) conditions:
Base: Lightweight long johns & tee in polyester or polypro
Shell ski pants, usually multi-layer but not insulated
mid-layer of lightweight fleece pull-over and vest
(the vest is one of many, usually NF Denali).
Shell parka, good gloves, neck gaiter (usually, but
always in my pocket) and hat/helmet and goggles.

If it's cold (below 10 deg F) add fleece pants over
long johns and under shell pants (duh!).
I also have a packable thinsulate jacket which goes
under my shell parka. Sometimes this goes over vest
if it's RealyCold(tm). At that point mittens replace
gloves and I add a face mask. I will also add a
helmet liner below 10 deg.

The second paragraph list has protected me well to
25 degrees below zero. Anything colder I sit out
by the fire.



anything colder and i'm usually afraid my cracked fan belt will snap
off, or the power steering hose will break or the battery will fail.
shudder.

the only tip i'll add is about gloves/mittens. i can't stand mittens
because i can't do a damn thing with them and yet i always have to
fumble for zippers or keys or kleenex or whatnot. problem is, they're
warmer than gloves. i find the ideal combination is thin gloves
(preferably with rubberized spots for grip) within leather mittens (not
insulated). when it gets really, really cold -- and if you've never
felt your nostrils start to freeze and squeeze together by itself, nor
felt the cheek muscles on your face start to harden, you have no idea
what "cold" can mean -- the glove/mitten combo is the best way to keep
your fingers from freezing when you have to take the mittens off to get
things done.

  #37  
Old December 13th 05, 07:06 AM
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"Sven Golly" wrote in message
4.119...

"foot2foot" wrote in
:

I think we should take the membranes out of your kidneys and
spray some coating in there and see what you think then.


Well since you've gone to ad hom, I'll return the favor. You're an idiot.


Ah, I didn't mean to set you off, I'm just joking.


There. Now, I have NO idea WTF you were rambling on about. In fact, I'm
think your reading skills are seriously impaired.

The membrane (some manufacturers call it a layer) can be made of
anything. It can be a coating that's sprayed onto a fabric substrate.


Huh uh. A coating is a coating. A membrane is a membrane. Call
it laminate if you want.


It can be stretched teflon that's laminated to a fabric (Gore-Tex).



It can
be a liquid poly that's floated onto a substrate.



Now, *that's* a bit interesting, what's this liquid poly?
A coating?

All it has to do is
pass water vapor in out and prevent water from getting in.


Yes.


Toray makes Entrant DT in both a laminate and coating form with about the
same breathability.


http://www.torayentrant.com/ent_dt/ent_dt.html

Now here's a nice little table that shows you how various types of
Toray's coatings and laminates perform.

http://www.torayentrant.com/spec/spec.html



Do you have anything besides their propaganda?

Now when you add to this the other mfg's who do stuff that's actually
woven into the fabric with equivalent waterproof/breathability ratings,


For instance?

you have big universe of ways to skin a cat. Or make fabric waterproof &
breathable.


To this day, I've been utterly disappointed by "coatings". I've had good
luck
with what you call a "laminate", which the people who make the very same
call a *membrane*.

Point me to one manufacturer who calls his "coating" (only a coating) a
"membrane"?


--
Sven Golly
Trolling as usual
Yah sure, oubetcha
Remove the _ to reply




  #38  
Old December 13th 05, 07:18 PM
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Sven Golly wrote:

Snip informed comment

Goodness, does this mean that f2f's full of **** ?
  #39  
Old December 14th 05, 01:52 AM
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"Sven Golly" wrote in message
. 11...

"foot2foot" wrote in
:

Do you have anything besides their propaganda?


Do you have anything at all other than your jibber jabber?


So you don't.

Sorry you
don't like the info from Toray. They supply WPB fabrics to a LOT of
major alpine apparel manufacturers including Lowe, Marmot,


Oh please.

They're potentially biased toward their own product.

You must admit, you haven't supplied any independent evaluation
of these spray on things. What I'm trying to say is that in my own
experience, what you call a laminate, which if you look through the
garment, you can clearly see, a whitish layer of whatever fabric
which passes water as a vapor not a liquid, works better than
spray on stuff by itself. Not that my opinion isn't open to change,
I haven't seen it yet.

Now when you add to this the other mfg's who do stuff that's
actually woven into the fabric with equivalent
waterproof/breathability ratings,


For instance?


Treated microfibers


What do you mean treated microfibers?

and some coatings which are fused all the way into
the material.


Uh huh, what do you mean by that?

You're getting wayyyy too wrapped up in semantics. Manufacturers call
will call coatings and laminates whatever the marketing folks decide to
call them. There is no industry standard definition.



Actually, you're the one that jumped all over my semantics in your
first reply, not vice versa. And you've just said that your semantics
have no accepted meaning either.

Point me to one manufacturer who calls his "coating" (only a coating)


What's with this "only a coating" definition of yours?


No "laminate", only typical nylon with some liquid type junk
sprayed onto it. I know you provided the toray stuff, maybe
things have changed, but anytime I've used something with a
spray on stuff purported to do the same thing as a "laminate",
I was disappointed. That's what I was trying to tell the poster.

Almost any
waterproof/breathable garment that's worth a damn will have a fabric
base, DWR finish (durable water repellent) and some kind of membrane,
coating, laminate or construction (use whatever term you like) that
creates the vapor transmission layer.


A membrane can be a coating, a film or a laminate. The idea is that it
acts as a vapor transmission layer. It's a one way deal.


You just said yourself there's no industry standard for the definition
of membrane.

"membrane"?


Marmot - "MemBrain" (which is made by Toray) - It's actually a microdot
film coating -- sort of like silkscreen printing - and not a true
laminate (even though they call it one).


Do they spray it on, or bond it because it already exists as a film?

HydroVent - It used to be used by North Face but now appears to be a
Pacific Trail exclusive. You'll see it referred to as a membrane. I'm
90% sure it's a bonded film coating (at least it was when North Face
used it).


But, you can look inside the garment and see the white stuff right in
there.....can't ya?


HellyTech - Comes in both a coating form and a bonded film. Both
achieve the same level of waterproofing / breathability.


Hmm, I've never seen anything but the white stuff.

Entrant - From the manufacturer - "Three layers of lamination or
coating consist of fabric, membrane and tricot backing.



Hmmmm they seem to be calling membrane lamination or coating.


They are
necessary, in order to improve the durability of the fabric. Tricot is
applied to the membrane and not directly to the fabric. These three
layers do not require an additional lining. This is ideal for
non-bulky, lightweight thin performance garments that are mostly
preferred for activewear."


So what's Tricot?


Note how they refer to the membrane as either lamination or coating.


Yea.


By the way, Columbia's WPB stuff is a coating of one sort or another.
To my knowledge, they don't do any laminates.



I'm looking right at the white gore texish layer in between the shell and
the mesh liner. Few years old Columbia. Looks just like the same
gore tex helly tech hydro vent white layer between the lining and the shell
that's permeable to water as a vapor but not as a liquid that I and the ones
that make the garment call a membrane. Now you're beginning to make
me doubt you really know what you're saying after all, even though you
make a fairly impressive presentation.

The latest things in fabric tech are plasma micro sprayed coatings and
new chemical liquids that bond into microfibers that can outperform
GoreTex.


If it try it, and it lasts and it works, I'll go with it. With what's
available
today, at reasonable prices, I'll go with your "laminate" which three mfrs
call a membrane.

Keep in mind that all of this ****e depends totally on the application.
There is no one best solution. For highly aerobic activities in very
cold weather, you may not want ANY water barrier at all


Unless it's raining? And you don't have a warm house to go to
for a while after you're done with excercise? In other words,
if you have to stay relatively dry, despite the fact that you're
excercising? And there's wet stuff coming down?

(ie. soft
shell) other than the DWR. Some fabrics use wicking to move moisture --
others depend on vapor transmission.


I dunno, it's interesting what you're posting, I only have experience
with reasonably priced stuff like hydro vent, helly tech, or gore tex,
you can look right in there and see the white layer in between the lining
and shell, and stuff claiming to be waterproof breathable that is only a
sprayed on substance. For me the white layer had worked, the
sprayed on stuff alone has not.

I've never seen Helly Tech in anything other than a "laminate".
I've never seen Gore Tex in anything other than a "laminate".
I'm looking right at the pants that say Hydro Vent, it's clearly
a "laminate", which I call a membrane, which they all call a
membrane. So, I dunno Sven...

I'm *still* going to recommend to this poster that he get a
garment that has a distinct obvious middle layer of laminate/
membrane/fabric what ever, white stuff, which is designed to
pass water as a vapor, but not as a liquid, as opposed to a
purely nylon garment that's been sprayed with a coating which
*claims* to be waterproof yet breathable. In the price ranges
we were talking, I think that's good advice.

Yea if you start to get into some of this brand new stuff for 500
bucks a jacket, maybe there is something to a spray, film, or
some new alteratives to what has worked very well, a distinct
middle layer of whatever white stuff designed to be waterproof
breatheable.

To be quite honest, if I wanted down to earth, simple
useful, sensible advice on the best bargain on ski/winter
clothing, I'm not sure I'd want to talk to you, you seem
to be a little too close to the sales aspect of the industry





  #40  
Old December 14th 05, 02:42 AM
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I hear that the only real requirement is that cloths be clean. Who
cares as long as they're not covered in dog**** or peanut butter or
any other matter of crustyness.

I hear that on ebay they have rules about crusty **** being sold. But
I've read a bunch of reviews about people receiving dirty ****.
What's up with that?


 




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