technique Q: curling or bending

Had a great weekend doing lots of laps on the 6k or so that were open & groomed for skating at Craftsbury.
Probably 70% legs only. Did some double poling though, & found, annoyingly, that despite various core
strengthening efforts ongoing since July, my lower back hurt.

After I got home, I was looking in the mirror and realizing that one can bend forward, sort of
rotating forward with an axis slightly above the tailbone, without actually tensing the abs much
-- also realized that this is what I "naturally" do when thinking "bend forward" without focusing
on abs.

The alternative (which I *think* is what I should be doing) feels to me more like I was curling my body
forward, starting with the upper abs and working down to pull the upper body downwards (like a Pilates
move, and/or the opposite of uncurling the back in rowing).

Would be interested to hear people's thoughts on this.

I'll try my best to add some confusion to the matter.

I think that the second alternative you mentioned (rotating using the
abs more and around a higher point) is probably what you should be
doing. For one thing, this is, as far as I know the current school of
thought in the US Ski Team. I was skeptical, but it seems to actually
be quite fast. I haven't used it enough to notice whether or not it
helps with lower back problems or not, it does work the abs a ton more.

For what its worth, the Norwegians used to (still do?) have some of the
deepest, most "natural" compression around, and had lots of lower back
problems.

Paul

Derick Fay wrote:
Had a great weekend doing lots of laps on the 6k or so that were open & groomed for skating at Craftsbury.
Probably 70% legs only. Did some double poling though, & found, annoyingly, that despite various core
strengthening efforts ongoing since July, my lower back hurt.

After I got home, I was looking in the mirror and realizing that one can bend forward, sort of
rotating forward with an axis slightly above the tailbone, without actually tensing the abs much
-- also realized that this is what I "naturally" do when thinking "bend forward" without focusing
on abs.

The alternative (which I *think* is what I should be doing) feels to me more like I was curling my body
forward, starting with the upper abs and working down to pull the upper body downwards (like a Pilates
move, and/or the opposite of uncurling the back in rowing).

Would be interested to hear people's thoughts on this.



--
Remove the caps to reply
Nordic Nuts
http://barney.gonzaga.edu/~pbelknap

It gets complicated (as usual).

-- the more muscle groups I can use to contribute to forward motion force
without interfering with each other, the more power and speed I will get. I
think my lower abs, upper abs, chest compression do not interfere, so I try
to use all of them, and I train all of them in the pavement-season. That
sounds like more of a "curl" then a sharp bend, and that's the mental image
I use.

-- various _back_ muscles also contribute to my forward motion power, by
lifting the weight of my head and shoulders and chest vertically. This
builds gravitational potential energy which is then applied to increase
forward push force during the pole-push phase. Straightening my back is not
just a dead "recovery" phase, it's also a work phase. The higher I lift the
weight of my head and shoulders, the more potential energy is accumulated.
The quicker I extend my back to lift them, the higher my power rate, as so
the higher my resulting forward speed.

Derick Fay wrote:
despite various core strengthening efforts
ongoing since July, my lower back hurt.

-- Isometric "stabilization" exercises are rather different from using your
muscles to do serious propulsion work. If you didn't _specifically_ train
your back muscles for three key components of _power_ (1 force, 2
range-of-motion, 3 muscle-speed), probably they weren't ready for the real
propulsion contribution they instinctively tried to make on snow. Sounds
like new stress, too much, too quick.

-- Since the back muscles are another source of forward propulsion power,
and they should be _trained_ like any other endurance power source:
long-slow-distance, force-strength, lactate threshold sessions,
neuro-muscular speed and range-of-motion, and rest. That's what I've been
doing this year.

-- Repetitive Motion Stress. Even if a serious racer has done a sound
progressive training program of the back muscles, I guess using those
ligaments thousands and thousands of times could be kinda tricky. My
recollection of evolutionary theory is that the mechanical structure of the
back originally emerged for a horizontal configuration for walking on four
paws or hoofs (or maybe swimming). When homo sapiens re-purposed the back
for two-paw walking in a vertical configuration, trouble started.

Doesn't seem like massive double-poling work in classic ski races was
included into the back's mechanical design objectives. Perhaps people who
can do serious classic-technique ski racing for years without back injuries
are genetic flukes. Glad I've been lucky so far.

But more _specific_ training with slower and more specific ramp-up should
help.

Ken

I've found iver the years that really concentrating on getting
those hips forward (pelvic thrust) during recovery actually helps
with the aching back during long DP's. (Cross-training to become
a "sex machine"??) So straight DP can actually relieve the dull
ache from lots of kick DP. Doesn't everybody get that ache at least
a bit. But real back problems are another matter. I suspect most
of the WCers who got that problem started it with an injury/accident
of some kind, rather than just from overuse.

Another possible reason for the original poster's ache might just
be the snow being very slow compared at least to rollerskis, and
the fact that you get more force into the poling, with no
slippage on pavement. I noticed a bit of extra aches both in my
back and obe elbow on Saturday, after the snow got slushier and
much slower from the warm ground.

More power and speed is good for the sprint, but for most of the
race you're on the red line for HR no matter which muscles are
used. So maybe strong abs and lower back are equally or more
important in order to spread the load away from other, especially
smaller, muscles?

Best, Peter

Makes sense. Thrusting the hips forward also gets the hips higher (because
of bone-joint geometry) -- so my interpretation is that's a way to use the
big upper _leg_ muscles to contribute work to poling propulsion by lifting
the weight of the upper body and adding vertical potential energy.

Makes sense that using the legs more could take some load off the back
muscles.

Ken

Peter Hoffman wrote:
getting those hips forward during recovery actually
helps with the aching back during long DP's.

But I'm not to agree that a max Heart Rate limit implies that there's no
point in trying to recruit more muscles in DP. For two reasons:
(1) Even elite athletes don't hit their full V02max in pure Double-Poling,
and most amateurs are a long way below V02max in their DP.
(2) Non-elite amateurs still have room to raise their V02max, and learning
to use additional muscles and train the aerobic and LT capacity of these
additional muscles could be a way to eventually raise V02max.

Peter Hoffman wrote:
More power and speed is good for the sprint,
but for most of the race you're on the red line
for HR no matter which muscles are used.

(1) But even in shorter races (never mind marathons), I thought most people
had a lower peak V02 consumption for Double-Poling than for diagonal
striding with legs or uphill bounding. This seems to imply there's some
leftover Central Cardio-Vascular capacity that could be used by additional
muscles when Double-Poling.

For us non-elite amateurs, the general drift I've gotten from books and
coaches is that Lactate Threshold is a more important performance limiter
than max HR or V02max. And lactate-handling capability is to some extent a
_peripheral_ capability out near the working muscles. So the more muscle
groups and fibers I can spread the lactate burden to, the more total
power -- provided I can effectively utilize those different muscles
_simultaneously_ -- and provided those other muscles have been _trained_ to
handle lactate.

(2) Seems to me there's also a chicken-and-egg problem with training my
Central cardio-vascular V02max. My ability to stress Central CV is limited
by my peripheral lactate-handling capacity.

So if I can use specific LT training to develop the lactate-handling
capability of other muscle groups, I raise my total power rate at my Lactate
Threshold, and also the peak power rate I can sustain in a super-LT
anaerobic interval workout. Then that higher power rate demands more oxygen
to feed it, which provides a higher stimulus to my Central CV interval
workouts. Since us non-elite types are not yet up to our theoretical
genetic V02max, seems to me I can _raise_ my central CV "red line".

Ken

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 wrote:

I've found iver the years that really concentrating on getting
those hips forward (pelvic thrust) during recovery actually helps
with the aching back during long DP's. (Cross-training to become
a "sex machine"??) So straight DP can actually relieve the dull
ache from lots of kick DP. Doesn't everybody get that ache at least
a bit.

I don't recall every getting sore lower back from DP or KDP, and
I've done plenty of hard DP, even uphill in ski-O races. But I
have frequently gotten sore lower back from racing good old diagonal
stride. I probably just never learned to do it correctly. Funny
thing is it never happens during training, only racing. Only data
point I was able to correlate with it is that it is worse when my
kick wax is on the slippery side.

-Mitch

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Ken Roberts wrote:

But I'm not to agree that a max Heart Rate limit implies that there's no
point in trying to recruit more muscles in DP. For two reasons:
(1) Even elite athletes don't hit their full V02max in pure Double-Poling,
and most amateurs are a long way below V02max in their DP.

You've obviously never raced DP uphill. A) it allows you to recruit
lots of extra muscle groups you can't incorporate easily on the flats,
and b) well, it's uphill. You'll have no problem maxing out if you
try. :-)

-Mitch

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Hi Derick-
I think that at least part of the problem (for me, anyway) is in the motion where you're trying to reach up and forward to get your poles far enough up the track to effectively "fall" on them and get the best extension out of the double pole-- what happens is that you end up hyper-extending your back. That little bit of a sway back means that as you come down on the poles you end up closing the posterior side of your lumbar vertebrae (the "back of your back")-- this ends up putting a pinch on the nerves and muscles there.

So much for analysis (w/ no guarantees as to its accuracy or relevance to what seems to be happening w/ your back!). But, here's a *simple* visualization that seems to help prevent getting into that hyperextension: Think of the front of your entire torso (not just your abs) as a spring-loaded "C-clamp." As you come up, the clamp opens up, and as you come down, the clamp contracts, but you never lose that C-shape. If you think of the spring-loaded aspect of it, this also helps get a little snap into the double-pole motion.

For me, anyway, it's helpful to understand the mechanics of what I'm doing wrong, but when it comes to trying to correct it, the simpler the better!

Chris Cline
SLC, UT
Derick Fay wrote:
Had a great weekend doing lots of laps on the 6k or so that were open & groomed for skating at Craftsbury.
Probably 70% legs only. Did some double poling though, & found, annoyingly, that despite various core
strengthening efforts ongoing since July, my lower back hurt.

After I got home, I was looking in the mirror and realizing that one can bend forward, sort of
rotating forward with an axis slightly above the tailbone, without actually tensing the abs much
-- also realized that this is what I "naturally" do when thinking "bend forward" without focusing
on abs.

The alternative (which I *think* is what I should be doing) feels to me more like I was curling my body
forward, starting with the upper abs and working down to pull the upper body downwards (like a Pilates
move, and/or the opposite of uncurling the back in rowing).

Would be interested to hear people's thoughts on this.







---------------------------------
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DIVHi Derick-/DIV
DIVI think that at least part of the problem (for me, anyway) is in the motion where you're trying to reach up and forward to get your poles far enough up the track to effectively "fall" on them and get the best extension out of the double pole-- what happens is that you end up hyper-extending your back.  That little bit of a sway back means that as you come down on the poles you end up closing the posterior side of your lumbar vertebrae (the "back of your back")-- this ends up putting a pinch on the nerves and muscles there./DIV
DIV /DIV
DIVSo much for analysis (w/ no guarantees as to its accuracy or relevance to what seems to be happening w/ your back!).  But, here's a *simple* visualization that seems to help prevent getting into that hyperextension:  Think of the front of your entire torso (not just your abs) as a spring-loaded "C-clamp."  As you come up, the clamp opens up, and as you come down, the clamp contracts, but you never lose that C-shape.  If you think of the spring-loaded aspect of it, this also helps get a little snap into the double-pole motion./DIV
DIV /DIV
DIVFor me, anyway, it's helpful to understand the mechanics of what I'm doing wrong, but when it comes to trying to correct it, the simpler the better!/DIV
DIV /DIV
DIVChris Cline/DIV
DIVSLC, UTBRBIDerick Fay >/I/B wrote:/DIV
BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"Had a great weekend doing lots of laps on the 6k or so that were open & groomed for skating at Craftsbury.BRProbably 70% legs only. Did some double poling though, & found, annoyingly, that despite various coreBRstrengthening efforts ongoing since July, my lower back hurt.BRBRAfter I got home, I was looking in the mirror and realizing that one can bend forward, sort of BRrotating forward with an axis slightly above the tailbone, without actually tensing the abs much BR-- also realized that this is what I "naturally" do when thinking "bend forward" without focusing BRon abs.BRBRThe alternative (which I *think* is what I should be doing) feels to me more like I was curling my bodyBRforward, starting with the upper abs and working down to pull the upper body downwards (like a Pilates BRmove, and/or the opposite of uncurling the back in rowing).BRB!
RWould
be interested to hear people's thoughts on this.BRBRBRBRBRBR/BLOCKQUOTEphr SIZE=1
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The common cause of a sore lower back is an over extension of the lower
back. The lower back is just over extended (bent backwards) as part of the
effort to get the hips forward. The extension is not productive as it moves
the shoulders up and backwards, undoing any benefit to the extra forward hip
movement.

Relax and keep some flex in the back. Keep the shoulders in front of the
hips. Don't try to pull shoulders back and up with the spine. I try to
inhale and apply some tension to my abdomen before the poles land. This
helps to shape the spine correctly.


Peter



"Mitch Collinsworth" wrote in message
r.cornell.edu...

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 wrote:

I've found iver the years that really concentrating on getting
those hips forward (pelvic thrust) during recovery actually helps
with the aching back during long DP's. (Cross-training to become
a "sex machine"??) So straight DP can actually relieve the dull
ache from lots of kick DP. Doesn't everybody get that ache at least
a bit.

I don't recall every getting sore lower back from DP or KDP, and
I've done plenty of hard DP, even uphill in ski-O races. But I
have frequently gotten sore lower back from racing good old diagonal
stride. I probably just never learned to do it correctly. Funny
thing is it never happens during training, only racing. Only data
point I was able to correlate with it is that it is worse when my
kick wax is on the slippery side.

-Mitch