The spirit of skiing

"Norm" wrote in message
news:KDF1e.818324$8l.464243@pd7tw1no...

(snipped)
Sure. No problem if thats actually the case. Do you think there
exists more of a problem at most resorts with people taking their
kids where it is unsafe or with people skiing too fast where its
not appropriate?

Yes I do. I think that if people think that people going fast is
unsafe for their kids they should not take their kids, not expect
people to slow down. I think that the only place that it's not
appropriate is in a designated beginner area segregated from the rest
of the area.

There are plenty of things in this world that have been
homoginized and to the lowest common denomonator for the pussies
that want to "look" like they are doing something dangerous. I
don't think skiing is one of them. There are beginner areas at the
bottom for what appears to be your type. But to haul ass and miss
everyone doesn't necessarily become a bad thing.


I don't want to see skiing go that way either, but I maintain there
are still plenty of places to ski fast. I love skiing fast. It
would damn near kill the sport for me if I couldn't do so. But, if
its crowded or your in an area where most people are skiing slowly,
it is irresponsible. Yunlong claimed there was room to be skiing
fast where he was scolded. He also said, if I understood him
correctly, it was near a transition to another chair. Those do tend
to be the places which get congested, so I tend to think he was
telling only his side of the story.

Well I've been pulled aside for making super G turns on a completely
empty run a couple of hundred yards above the slow sign. When I
pulled up and threw in a couple of quick, slow down turns as I
approached the slow sign and lift area (still empty except for the
nazi) I was told that "tucking" was not allowed. No matter the amount
of control.

Another time I was told I was making too many turns to be in control.
"No one can make that many turns, that ski is taller than you, and be
in control". I got my pass snipped for that one, I got so angry at
the guy.

Having read some of his bull****, and his "arms wide" thing this
may/probably not have been one of those circumstances.

That
means straightlining where there are other people close by. How
close is not your call. There are plenty of places you can ski
fast without endangering anybody else. Use your head.

I don't think he said he was straightlining.


I think he did. See the part of his post still remaining at the top
of this one.

I took that to be an example of the kinds of skiing that would be not
allowed. But given his ****ed up self made definitions, I'll give you
that one.

But now your looking for us to get out the measuring tapes. If the
patroller felt it was serious enough to take the time out of his
day to speak to Yunlong, then in his opinion, Yonlong was too close
or too fast. Thats not to say every patroller's word is gospel, but
in most cases I think they have enough to occupy their time that
they wouldn't be stopping every skier who isn't cutting short
radius turns..

Well if they get out the measuring tapes they have to keep them out.
I've accidentally come close before. But missed. The rule is not to
hit. And make no mistake there are idiots out there that need to be
kicked in the balls. And I don't know how he skis. I can stand on a
slope and tell you which ones need a talking too. But I've also been
the target of stupid ****ing power trips from those assholes that
couldn't buy a turn if they had to. And I think on the mountain, it's
grown up territory. The benifit of the doubt should go towards
skiing, not making skiing into a Disneyland ride for the masses.

Just this week I was in some trees, about a 5' wide, and came upon
someone dawdling along in some sort of slow uneven traverses. No
way to see them until your upon them, I missed them by a few
inches. And got a little screech out of them.


I agree with you, they shouldn't have been there if they couldn't
ski it. Waste of good powder and waste of somebodies time rescuing
them when they get in trouble. But, sometimes people do stupid
things. Like get into an area they can't handle. Thats not the same
as skiing too quickly in a congested zone.

I think it is. Increase the penalty for those that abuse, but let us
go. If you're faint of heart maybe scrapbooking is a better ''sport"
for you (not you personally).

It's a big boys sport and if you want to be a skier, deal. Or stay
in the family (crybaby) zone where you can be protected from most
every occurance.

And how can you

even begin to complain about skiers if you frequent areas that
aren't boardfree? I would think that the lack of manuverability
even by "experienced" boarders, let alone what seems to be their
"rules aren't for us" attitude, would keep you off of those hills.


We've had that discussion, its really irrelevent to this one.

Except on their best day they don't have the manuverability (control)
that a skier has.

I also know that there are lawyers and marketing and all that
bull**** to consider. All of which put more money in the pockets of
shareholders who are the pussies that want the controlled environment
to boost their egos and give them the feeling of danger without
actually exposing them to it, butt **** 'em.

"lal_truckee" wrote in message
. ..
yunlong wrote silly BS including this gem:
he was referring my open arms style.

That's a good one, huh?

I pretty much assume that he probably deserved what he got but there
are some real idiot patrollers out there. I just hate the lowest
common denominator setting the bar for everyone.

Well, the spirit of skiing was alive and well at the Basin today. It was a
beautiful blue sky day and the beach was the place to be. Not really any
crowds on the slopes either because most people were doing the BBQ thing on
the beach.

However, this is the weekend (and a 3 day one for many) so the trails are
more crowded than usual so it's perfectly reasonable that the ski patrol
wanted you to slow down. Hey, I ski fast but I don't do it on the weekends
when the unwashed hordes are all over the hill. Just ski backcountry on the
weekends where you can go as fast as the conditions permit.

snoig

"yunlong" wrote in message

Too fast on Ridge Run? Ridge Run is THE "Broadway" of Heavenly, and is
a wide and mild blue run, I frowned and didn't answer him.

Exactly. An attractive easy run that will have lots of people on it. bombing
down such a run without turning is NOT in control. If someone appeared in
front of you, you would need too much time to avoid them. The resort is
doing a good job in having its patrol try to prevent accidents, rather than
deal with their aftermath.

ant

"pigo" wrote in message
...


Sure. No problem if thats actually the case. Do you think there exists
more of a problem at most resorts with people taking their kids where it
is unsafe or with people skiing too fast where its not appropriate?

Yes I do. I think that if people think that people going fast is unsafe
for their kids they should not take their kids, not expect people to slow
down. I think that the only place that it's not appropriate is in a
designated beginner area segregated from the rest of the area.

I don't think your being fair to the people who inject most of the money to
allow you and I to ride lifts into the alpine where we prefer to ski. Most
areas do in fact designate the lower end of many runs as slow skiing zones.
Not necesarily beginner zones, and not segragated, but slow skiing. The
lower end of these runs tend to gather all the higher end skiers and the
lower end ones together in the same area. Its unavoidable, its just
geography. I don't think its too much to ask to slow down in these areas. I
ski fast on the upper areas. Thats good enough for me. If I'm skiing fast on
the low end and some kid makes an unexpected turn, is he going to be any
less hurt than if it was my fault? Will I hurt any less? Am I going to have
any less trouble living with the consequences? When I learned to drive a car
they taught me it wasn't good enough for me to be in the right, I had to
look out for the other guy as well. That means being cautious and courteous
so we all get to ski another day.






There are plenty of things in this world that have been homoginized and
to the lowest common denomonator for the pussies that want to "look"
like they are doing something dangerous. I don't think skiing is one of
them. There are beginner areas at the bottom for what appears to be your
type. But to haul ass and miss everyone doesn't necessarily become a bad
thing.


I don't want to see skiing go that way either, but I maintain there are
still plenty of places to ski fast. I love skiing fast. It would damn
near kill the sport for me if I couldn't do so. But, if its crowded or
your in an area where most people are skiing slowly, it is irresponsible.
Yunlong claimed there was room to be skiing fast where he was scolded. He
also said, if I understood him correctly, it was near a transition to
another chair. Those do tend to be the places which get congested, so I
tend to think he was telling only his side of the story.

Well I've been pulled aside for making super G turns on a completely empty
run a couple of hundred yards above the slow sign. When I pulled up and
threw in a couple of quick, slow down turns as I approached the slow sign
and lift area (still empty except for the nazi) I was told that "tucking"
was not allowed. No matter the amount of control.

Another time I was told I was making too many turns to be in control. "No
one can make that many turns, that ski is taller than you, and be in
control". I got my pass snipped for that one, I got so angry at the guy.


Take your case to the Patrol Director. "Too many turns" is just bull****, I
don't know any patroller who would say that. I bet your complaint about that
guy would not be the first one.





Having read some of his bull****, and his "arms wide" thing this
may/probably not have been one of those circumstances.

That
means straightlining where there are other people close by. How close
is not your call. There are plenty of places you can ski fast without
endangering anybody else. Use your head.

I don't think he said he was straightlining.


I think he did. See the part of his post still remaining at the top of
this one.

I took that to be an example of the kinds of skiing that would be not
allowed. But given his ****ed up self made definitions, I'll give you that
one.

But now your looking for us to get out the measuring tapes. If the
patroller felt it was serious enough to take the time out of his day to
speak to Yunlong, then in his opinion, Yonlong was too close or too fast.
Thats not to say every patroller's word is gospel, but in most cases I
think they have enough to occupy their time that they wouldn't be
stopping every skier who isn't cutting short radius turns..

Well if they get out the measuring tapes they have to keep them out. I've
accidentally come close before. But missed. The rule is not to hit. And
make no mistake there are idiots out there that need to be kicked in the
balls. And I don't know how he skis. I can stand on a slope and tell you
which ones need a talking too. But I've also been the target of stupid
****ing power trips from those assholes that couldn't buy a turn if they
had to.


Well, its really a peripheral point, but the patrollers own skiing ability
has nothing to do with his ability to decide if what a skier is doing is
safe or not. In any case the safety of all the resort's guests is his job.
Once in a while he will estimate incorrectly, but he needs to err on the
side of caution, its his job. Its not good enough to wait until someone is
hit to take action, thats too late.


And I think on the mountain, it's grown up territory. The benifit of the
doubt should go towards skiing, not making skiing into a Disneyland ride
for the masses.


Higher up on the mtn, you bet. On the low end where its marked slow skiing,
how much can it hurt to take it easy? Does it really add that much time or
take away that much enjoyment to slow down the bottom end of a run? Thats
why they include black runs. They even groom a few blacks so we can really
go fast if we choose. The majority of the real revenue comes from people who
may never see a black run. Many resorts could block off the balcks
completely and not take a huge hit in skier visits, if not for the
perception that this would now be an "easy mountain".



Just this week I was in some trees, about a 5' wide, and came upon
someone dawdling along in some sort of slow uneven traverses. No way to
see them until your upon them, I missed them by a few inches. And got a
little screech out of them.


I agree with you, they shouldn't have been there if they couldn't ski it.
Waste of good powder and waste of somebodies time rescuing them when they
get in trouble. But, sometimes people do stupid things. Like get into an
area they can't handle. Thats not the same as skiing too quickly in a
congested zone.


I think it is. Increase the penalty for those that abuse, but let us go.
If you're faint of heart maybe scrapbooking is a better ''sport" for you
(not you personally).

Fair enough, but how do we define and recognize that abuse? Can we leave it
up to the patroller watching the hill to determine that you and I are good
enough at speed to avoid running into someone and Joe Gorby over there is
not? Wouldn't it be more fair to say: "Here you are allowed to ski fast and
here you are not."? We really don't need to be allowed to ski fast every
where, do we?






It's a big boys sport and if you want to be a skier, deal. Or stay in
the family (crybaby) zone where you can be protected from most every
occurance.

And how can you

even begin to complain about skiers if you frequent areas that aren't
boardfree? I would think that the lack of manuverability even by
"experienced" boarders, let alone what seems to be their "rules aren't
for us" attitude, would keep you off of those hills.


We've had that discussion, its really irrelevent to this one.

Except on their best day they don't have the manuverability (control) that
a skier has.

I also know that there are lawyers and marketing and all that bull**** to
consider. All of which put more money in the pockets of shareholders who
are the pussies that want the controlled environment to boost their egos
and give them the feeling of danger without actually exposing them to it,
butt **** 'em.

To be precise the lawyers take money out of the pockets of the shareholders.
I'm no doubt the shareholders resent the restrictions risk management places
on them exponentially more than you and I resent whatever limits it places
on our enjoyment.
Personally, it doesn't bother me a lot. When I'm on the lower portion of the
mountain, I'm "In the resort". I'm really not skiing for real until I get up
top with the wind blowing and untracked under my feet. Or beyond the ropes
where my fate is in my own hands. The limits don't affect me there. Tourists
with their kids don't go there. The bottom of the resort is just a means to
an end. Those people pay an obscene amount for an experience which doesn't
come close to the one I have. They subsidize my experience and I don't
begrudge them a little courtesy.

"yunlong" wrote in
oups.com:

"I go faster if I turn," I told him.

This is unusual, and may be due to your technique. I've watched a lot of
DH an slalom races, and IIRC, the DH has fewer turns and higher speeds.
I've always assumed the two phenomena were related. I also recall that
in the days of speed skiing, no one made any turns on the course. It
would be an odd technique indeed that could go slower while going
straight.

"It's a tough call, maybe you can do straightlining at nine o'clock,
but... the way you straightline flying down the trail is reckless," he
was referring my open arms style.

Patrollers have to make judgements based on what they see, and their
experience. Your technique, as you should have gathered from the feeback
received here, is unusual, to say the least. You're going to have to
accept that a patroller will view it as the form of a bad skier. And a
bad skier going fast in an intermediate area is unsafe. Sometimes
they'll make mistakes, but their job is to increase safety on the
mountain, and so they will err in that direction.

Although you said the run was uncrowded at the time, most patrollers know
their hills pretty well, and he has likely seen bad things happen when a
skier goes by skiing like you did. So he makes a judgement call, and
asks you to slow down. It's human nature to get defensive in a situation
like that, and to argue the point. But you cannot win those arguments.
At the end of the day, the resort management has to decide whose opinions
they will trust on issues of safety: Their trained patrollers' or those
of a complete stranger. Only one of those is sustainable.

I was not going to back down; it is my right as a valid ticket holder
and national forest user to ski what I want to ski, and you ski
patroller or the resort is not going to depict what style I must have
and how I'm going to ski.

Sounds great, but it's wrong. The patroller and the resort are exactly
the people who will tell you what you can and cannot do. Who else do you
think would do that? A forest ranger?

Where did the spirit of skiing go?

It's right where it's always been. On the mountain.
That doesn't mean that there are no limits. You can ski fast in some
places and not in others. No big deal, find the fast places.

dh

"Norm" wrote in message
newsPP1e.823725$6l.707281@pd7tw2no...

"Slower and courteous" is one thing I don't have a problem with. The
problem is how slow is slow. Everytime I was accosted I was in
complete control and not in danger of hitting anyone. To give a few
of them credit, all it took was a couple of quick turns to
demonstrate control.

Take your case to the Patrol Director. "Too many turns" is just
bull****, I don't know any patroller who would say that. I bet your
complaint about that guy would not be the first one.

I did. They just laughed. Had they taken the pass I would have taken
them to court, but it was only a corner clip so I let it go there.

Well, its really a peripheral point, but the patrollers own skiing
ability has nothing to do with his ability to decide if what a
skier is doing is safe or not. In any case the safety of all the
resort's guests is his job. Once in a while he will estimate
incorrectly, but he needs to err on the side of caution, its his
job. Its not good enough to wait until someone is hit to take
action, thats too late.

His own ability can have plenty to do with his/her attitude. "side of
caution" is just another way to say "lowest common denomonator".

And I think on the mountain, it's grown up territory. The benifit
of the doubt should go towards skiing, not making skiing into a
Disneyland ride for the masses.


Higher up on the mtn, you bet. On the low end where its marked slow
skiing, how much can it hurt to take it easy? Does it really add
that much time or take away that much enjoyment to slow down the
bottom end of a run? Thats why they include black runs. They even
groom a few blacks so we can really go fast if we choose. The
majority of the real revenue comes from people who may never see a
black run. Many resorts could block off the balcks completely and
not take a huge hit in skier visits, if not for the perception that
this would now be an "easy mountain".

I do slow down at the bottom of a run. I'm talking about the ones
where they want to slow you down to a skate. Like park ****ty used to
do. They're the ones I'm talking about. And I haven't been there in 8
years.

To get back to how this started. I think that IME, doofus _probably_
got a bad shake from patrol. There are a couple of slow signs at Alta
but no nazi's manning them.

Fair enough, but how do we define and recognize that abuse? Can we
leave it up to the patroller watching the hill to determine that
you and I are good enough at speed to avoid running into someone
and Joe Gorby over there is not? Wouldn't it be more fair to say:
"Here you are allowed to ski fast and here you are not."? We really
don't need to be allowed to ski fast every where, do we?

I would rather see that, yes. I think that there are plenty of
wannabe areas out there. Let's keep them there. I don't think a blue
run should be one of those.

To be precise the lawyers take money out of the pockets of the
shareholders. I'm no doubt the shareholders resent the restrictions
risk management places on them exponentially more than you and I
resent whatever limits it places on our enjoyment.
Personally, it doesn't bother me a lot. When I'm on the lower
portion of the mountain, I'm "In the resort". I'm really not skiing
for real until I get up top with the wind blowing and untracked
under my feet. Or beyond the ropes where my fate is in my own
hands. The limits don't affect me there. Tourists with their kids
don't go there. The bottom of the resort is just a means to an end.
Those people pay an obscene amount for an experience which doesn't
come close to the one I have. They subsidize my experience and I
don't begrudge them a little courtesy.

I guess that's why I don't ski those places anymore.

Bryan wrote:
Where did the spirit of skiing go?
You said it was a blue run and called it broadway. Well, in my
limited
experience, most blue runs are generally just advanced green runs and
not
the place for speed.

A couple of weeks ago somebody published results from a speed study
conducted by researchers associated with the helmet industry. (You can
find the report in the thread about skiing speeds started by Ron NY).
Here are some snippets related to this matter:

"Our previous unpublished work shows that speeds are highest on
'Intermediate' or 'Blue Square' trails."

"Fact: the fastest persons on the slopes will tend to be advanced level
male skiers, on groomed blue square trails, wearing helmets, under good
visibility conditions."

I agree. With the exception of a single black trail aptly named The
Rocket, the blue cruisers are made for SPEED!!

Jeff

Norm wrote:
"yunlong" wrote in message

And he left, left me there wondering, there was no accident, not
even
incident, and the run/path I skied was in no where near a skier
that
can be qualified as "passing," just pure flatboardingly fast;
staightlining on a blue run is now "speeding"/"reckless," what is
the
sport of skiing coming to?

Where did the spirit of skiing go?

You are the problem.

Why? Because I know how to ski fast and you don't?

Too many innocent people got creamed by idiots like you.

Or too many idiots think that they can draw a conclusion without
knowing any facts.

If every skier skis like me there wouldn't be any accident.

He has had to clean up the results too many times.

That's their jobs, but they cannot depict how skiers ski just because
it is convenient for them to do their jobs.

He knew you were full of **** as soon as you told him
you went faster when you turned.

Or just your full of **** assessment?

Flatboarding uses inside ski turn, that is, right foot heavy to turn
right (like walking); more turn means more foot pressure, and more foot
pressure means faster speed (like running); yep, flatboarding goes fast
when it turns.

Next time don't say anything quite that stupid and maybe you
can have some sort of dialogue.

Maybe just your idea is stupid; the patroller and I had a very
meaningful dialogue, we resolved the conflict without further ado,
didn't we?

Read (or get a translator to read) the back of your pass. Lift
privileges can be revoked without refund for irresponsible behaviour.

The resorts and patrollers have to follow the laws too.

And don't tell me that I ski irresponsibly when you cannot specify
"what" the "irresponsible behaviour" is. Proving your statement is
another question.

That means straightlining where there are other people close by.

Why? Actually, straightlining, especially at higher speed, requires a
higher concentration and awareness and better ski control to do it, all
of those abilities enhance a skier performance and make he/she a better
and safer skier.

How close is not your call.

Whose call it is?

There are plenty of places you can ski fast without
endangering anybody else.

Why should [advanced] skiers be excluded from a/any particular area in
the resort? Don't they pay full amount for the ticket?

Use your head.

Yup, good advice to yourself.


IS

VtSkier wrote:
yunlong wrote:
Last Friday, after I bombed down the Ridge Run, Heavenly, a ski
patroller caught up with me when I was to make a transit to the
Powder
Bowl, wanted to have a "chat" with me.

"You are going too fast," he said.

Too fast on Ridge Run? Ridge Run is THE "Broadway" of Heavenly, and
is
a wide and mild blue run, I frowned and didn't answer him.

"Do you understand?" he may think I was a foreigner, but he was
quite
serious.

"No, I don't understand," I answered.

Well, at least I speak English, so he continued, "the way you fly
down
the hill is too fast for the environment."

"Why?" I frowned.

"You should turn more," he said.

"I go faster if I turn," I told him.

"The way you flying and passing other skiers on the hill is too
fast
for the environment."

"There's no sign up there to say how fast I can[/cannot] go?" I
said.

And I told him that I came to Heavenly to ski, for the sport and
the
speed.

"It's a tough call, maybe you can do straightlining at nine
o'clock,
but... the way you straightline flying down the trail is reckless,"
he
was referring my open arms style.

I said, "No, I was not reckless. I made a precision run and it was
under control at the all time." Actually, the open arms is my most
stable and maneuverable posture, and I made two downhill/GS style
turns
to avoid some skiers on the hill, and I think that's why he thought
it
was reckless.

"You should turn more," he continued.

"I go faster if I turn," I continued.

.....

I was not going to back down; it is my right as a valid ticket
holder
and national forest user to ski what I want to ski, and you ski
patroller or the resort is not going to depict what style I must
have
and how I'm going to ski.

Not sure what was he thinking, but he sensed it, then he suggested
I
turn more when I near other skiers, and to tune down the conflict
so I
said ok.

And he left, left me there wondering, there was no accident, not
even
incident, and the run/path I skied was in no where near a skier
that
can be qualified as "passing," just pure flatboardingly fast;
staightlining on a blue run is now "speeding"/"reckless," what is
the
sport of skiing coming to?

Where did the spirit of skiing go?


IS


The spirit of skiing is in the hands of attorneys.

That was what I afraid of, bunch of nonskiers going to depict how
skiers should ski.


I would have strongly questioned his statement that skiing
fast is bad for the "environment". What the hell does that
mean.

I think he meant it as "skiing environment," the trail.


The only place I saw dedicated speed control guys in the
Tahoe area was at Sierra at Tahoe. He was set up on a
beginner "road" where there was some switchbacks. I stopped
and chatted him up. Decent sort. Around here we only
attempt (it doesn't work, really) to control speed on
trails that are clearly marked as "SLOW" and a few really
dangerous intersections where expert trails cross
novice trails that are particularly heavily used.

They stopped me once there too. It was spring skiing condition, as I
came down/out the switchbacks onto the straight run on Corkscrew
(green), the snow was very sticky (read, very slow), so I
straightlined. The trail merged with Escape trail, I think, which is a
blue run. Two boarders struggling down from the trail (higher than me,
i.e. I had the right-a-way) tumbling, and I did some fancy maneuvers to
avoid them. A maintain safety supervisor stopped me and said that I did
some dangerous maneuvers, as speeding and reckless. And I asked him to
define his terms, and he said, "straightlining is speeding." And I told
him that is not a ski industry standard, and I objected his definition
and citation. He said because I "object" he definite going to give me
one. How arrogant, I told him I'll just ignore it. I showed him my
pass, he wrote down something on his notebook, but didn't give me
anything. (How's such citation being issued? No idea.) I took his name
and brought it up to his supervisor. His supervisor said he didn't know
what was going on but he supported his man's decision; nice boss, but
how ignorant/arrogant [language] in the court of laws/logic; then he
went into the details explaining to me how difficult their jobs were,
and tried to soften my stand. Though he apologized, but I didn't think
he meant that.

I told him that his man back-walling answer the "straightlining is
speeding" was very unprofessional, and he needed to train his people do
a better job. He wasn't happy, but he said if I wanted, I can take the
issue to general manager. I would that day, but the general manager
wasn't there, so I was planning to pursue it the next day.

The next day, I cooled down a bit, and didn't want them to lose their
jobs over this insignificant incident (I will sue if my right to ski in
the national forest is violated), I let it slide.


IS


VtSkier