Cap vs. non-Cap board construction ?

"Sean Martin" wrote in message et...
Obviously there "can" be performance benefits, but a good designer can
create the same or better enhancements to a sandwich board. I say "can"
because there are many techniques for creating a cap board. Some are
performance enhancing and others are not.

Hmm... this might be a little awkward to answer, but what's you
opinion about Neversummer's idea of using Sintered P-Tex sidewalls?

--arvin

Well I am good friends with the owners of NS. I can tell you why I don't
use it and why I use ABS. ABS is more rigid than P-tex, giving a firmer
feel to the edge. ABS can become more brittle than P-Tex at low
temperatures. As a result, you need to use narrower sidewalls to reduce the
stresses and prevent cracking in high impact situations. This is the main
resaon our slant wall is closer to 90 degrees than NS's. If we cut back at
a much steeper angle, we'd be into the core. ABS is easily repaired. It is
soluble in Acetone. You can therefore weld a broken sidewall (usually these
are accompanied by other catastrofic failures) with acetone or ABS pipe
welding cement. P-tex must be hot air welded to obtain a repair that is as
strong as the original material. I'm not sure of the properties of the
P-tex material NS is using, but most sintered materials have a zero melt
index, meaning hot air welding is next to impossible.

Sean Martin
Donek Snowboards Inc.

http://www.donek.com/
phone:877-53-DONEK

"Arvin Chang" wrote in message
om...
"Sean Martin" wrote in message
et...
Obviously there "can" be performance benefits, but a good designer can
create the same or better enhancements to a sandwich board. I say "can"
because there are many techniques for creating a cap board. Some are
performance enhancing and others are not.

Hmm... this might be a little awkward to answer, but what's you
opinion about Neversummer's idea of using Sintered P-Tex sidewalls?

--arvin

"Sean Martin" wrote in message et...

Sean Martin
Donek Snowboards Inc.

Thanks, Sean. Appreciate the detail.


What is your take on the lower tip and tail weight that the cap manufacturers
seem to be able to more easily achieve. (i.e. on a Ride Timeless you see
the material actually milled out) The "sell" is that this lowers the swing
weight which makes it easier to flip it around in tricks or moguls.

Are sandwich manufactured boards able to achieve this same benefit by
adding lighter material in these areas?

-todd

Well awkward in that I'm kind of having one company comment on another
company the is nearby and technically a rival.

A few questions:

What is ABS? (didn't find a mention of it on your website) Actually I
just looked it up - Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene Copolymer? Sounds
like some type of plastic (mentioned in the same breath as PVC) what
are it's properties?
What is a "melt index"?
When you weld with acetone is that like gas welding vs arc welding? (I
have a very limit knowledge of such processes).
What is ABS pipe welding cement?

Hmm... I'm thinking about replacing my Salomon Definition (which is
nice, stiff and stable at high speeds... but dampened so much that it
is extremely slow and unresponsible at slower speeds) with either a
Neversummer or a Donek... tough decision man. Well I guess I shouldn't
worry to much as it will be another season at least before I do that.

--arvin

"Sean Martin" wrote in message et...
Well I am good friends with the owners of NS. I can tell you why I don't
use it and why I use ABS. ABS is more rigid than P-tex, giving a firmer
feel to the edge. ABS can become more brittle than P-Tex at low
temperatures. As a result, you need to use narrower sidewalls to reduce the
stresses and prevent cracking in high impact situations. This is the main
resaon our slant wall is closer to 90 degrees than NS's. If we cut back at
a much steeper angle, we'd be into the core. ABS is easily repaired. It is
soluble in Acetone. You can therefore weld a broken sidewall (usually these
are accompanied by other catastrofic failures) with acetone or ABS pipe
welding cement. P-tex must be hot air welded to obtain a repair that is as
strong as the original material. I'm not sure of the properties of the
P-tex material NS is using, but most sintered materials have a zero melt
index, meaning hot air welding is next to impossible.

Sean Martin
Donek Snowboards Inc.

http://www.donek.com/
phone:877-53-DONEK

"Arvin Chang" wrote in message
om...
"Sean Martin" wrote in message
et...
Obviously there "can" be performance benefits, but a good designer can
create the same or better enhancements to a sandwich board. I say "can"
because there are many techniques for creating a cap board. Some are
performance enhancing and others are not.

Hmm... this might be a little awkward to answer, but what's you
opinion about Neversummer's idea of using Sintered P-Tex sidewalls?

--arvin

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 08:17:02 GMT, (Arvin Chang)
allegedly wrote:

What is ABS? (didn't find a mention of it on your website) Actually I
just looked it up - Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene Copolymer? Sounds
like some type of plastic (mentioned in the same breath as PVC) what
are it's properties?

The FAQ says: Acrylonitrite Butadiene Styrene (Plastic used as snowboard
topsheet).

If Sean gives a definitite answer, I can add to that, and correct any
spelling.

- Dave.

--
The only powder to get high on, falls from the sky.
http://www.vpas.org/ - Snowboarding the worlds pow pow -
Securing your e-mail

The Snowboard FAQ lives here - http://rssFAQ.org/

(Arvin Chang) wrote in message . com...

A few questions:

What is ABS?
Its just a really strong plastic.
Something to do with polymers which if I remember right means that the
molecules fit together very tightly, giving high strength and impact
resistance. An ABS plastic part shouldn't crack when you drop it.

When you weld with acetone is that like gas welding vs arc welding?
Nah. Ever put together model airplanes or cars as a kid? If so, you
remember that the glue you used pretty much melted the two pieces of
plastic and fused them together. So, it looks like a weld, but its a
room temperature process. So, I'm sure Sean will answer, but it is
a similar process - put two pieces of ABS together with some acetone
and they'll fuse together.

-todd

You found the right name for the ABS. It's a commonly used plastic that is
quite durable. It's frequently thermoformed as well as injection moulded.
Solvent welding simply involves saturating the joint area with the solvent
and letting it evaporate. Once the solvent has completely evaporated, the
two parts are fused together. ABS pipe welding cement is available in the
plumbing department of you hardware store. It has some additives that make
it a bit better for welding ABS than acetone.

Sean Martin
Donek Snowboards Inc.

http://www.donek.com/
phone:877-53-DONEK

"Arvin Chang" wrote in message
om...
Well awkward in that I'm kind of having one company comment on another
company the is nearby and technically a rival.

A few questions:

What is ABS? (didn't find a mention of it on your website) Actually I
just looked it up - Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene Copolymer? Sounds
like some type of plastic (mentioned in the same breath as PVC) what
are it's properties?
What is a "melt index"?
When you weld with acetone is that like gas welding vs arc welding? (I
have a very limit knowledge of such processes).
What is ABS pipe welding cement?

Hmm... I'm thinking about replacing my Salomon Definition (which is
nice, stiff and stable at high speeds... but dampened so much that it
is extremely slow and unresponsible at slower speeds) with either a
Neversummer or a Donek... tough decision man. Well I guess I shouldn't
worry to much as it will be another season at least before I do that.

--arvin

"Sean Martin" wrote in message
et...
Well I am good friends with the owners of NS. I can tell you why I
don't
use it and why I use ABS. ABS is more rigid than P-tex, giving a firmer
feel to the edge. ABS can become more brittle than P-Tex at low
temperatures. As a result, you need to use narrower sidewalls to reduce
the
stresses and prevent cracking in high impact situations. This is the
main
resaon our slant wall is closer to 90 degrees than NS's. If we cut back
at
a much steeper angle, we'd be into the core. ABS is easily repaired.
It is
soluble in Acetone. You can therefore weld a broken sidewall (usually
these
are accompanied by other catastrofic failures) with acetone or ABS pipe
welding cement. P-tex must be hot air welded to obtain a repair that is
as
strong as the original material. I'm not sure of the properties of the
P-tex material NS is using, but most sintered materials have a zero melt
index, meaning hot air welding is next to impossible.

Sean Martin
Donek Snowboards Inc.

http://www.donek.com/
phone:877-53-DONEK

"Arvin Chang" wrote in message
om...
"Sean Martin" wrote in message
et...
Obviously there "can" be performance benefits, but a good designer
can
create the same or better enhancements to a sandwich board. I say
"can"
because there are many techniques for creating a cap board. Some
are
performance enhancing and others are not.

Hmm... this might be a little awkward to answer, but what's you
opinion about Neversummer's idea of using Sintered P-Tex sidewalls?

--arvin

What is your take on the lower tip and tail weight that the cap
manufacturers
seem to be able to more easily achieve. (i.e. on a Ride Timeless you see
the material actually milled out) The "sell" is that this lowers the
swing
weight which makes it easier to flip it around in tricks or moguls.

Are sandwich manufactured boards able to achieve this same benefit by
adding lighter material in these areas?

-todd

This is an advantage that cap has over sandwich, but the effect can
frequently cause a disadvantage. When you lower the weight of the tip and
tail, you increase the vibrational frequency of the board. This can
frequently result in more chatter at higher speeds. If you spend 100% of
your time in the park and pipe, that's not a problem. You may notice that a
lot of these boards incorporate an aluminum tip and tail protector. These
are useful as weights to reduce the vibrational frequency of the board.
Thus the whole objective has been lost.

As for what we do in the tip and tail. We simply thin the material as mouch
as possible and use an ABS extension. The way in which we use this material
actually helps reduce vibrations.

It's important to understand that each design modification has a purpose.
The question that we always ask is "does that purpose serve the bulk of our
customers?" Although just about everybody enjoys the park or pipe, how much
of their time is actually spent there. This may not be accurate for all
boarders, but most of our customers spend at least 50% of their time outside
the park and pipe. As a result, performance in a freeriding situation
becomes very important.

Sean Martin
Donek Snowboards Inc.

http://www.donek.com/
phone:877-53-DONEK

Switters wrote in message ...
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 08:17:02 GMT, (Arvin Chang)
allegedly wrote:

What is ABS? (didn't find a mention of it on your website) Actually I
just looked it up - Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene Copolymer? Sounds
like some type of plastic (mentioned in the same breath as PVC) what
are it's properties?

The FAQ says: Acrylonitrite Butadiene Styrene (Plastic used as snowboard
topsheet).

If Sean gives a definitite answer, I can add to that, and correct any
spelling.

- Dave.

Yes, I found the FAQ unhelpful in this instance. If you read my post,
I already found out what ABS stood for and that it was a plastic. I
just wasn't exactly sure about it's physical properties. If you had
read my post more carefully you would have noticed that.

Personally I don't really care that much about spelling so long as the
post is relatively intelligible (at least that's my rationalization
for my lack of self-proofreading)... but if you value proper spelling
and punctuation that highly maybe you should at least spell check your
own postings first

"Sean Martin" wrote in message t...
It's important to understand that each design modification has a purpose.
The question that we always ask is "does that purpose serve the bulk of our
customers?" Although just about everybody enjoys the park or pipe, how much
of their time is actually spent there. This may not be accurate for all
boarders, but most of our customers spend at least 50% of their time outside
the park and pipe. As a result, performance in a freeriding situation
becomes very important.

Hmm... more Neversummer vs Donek questions. Would you say that
Neversummer's line up is more freestyle oriented?

For instance how you compare your Donek Incline vs NS Premier in terms
of the intended riding style (like what type of riding intended the
board is designed for).

--arvin