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Crossover and Crossunder



 
 
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  #11  
Old April 25th 05, 03:45 PM
VtSkier
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Walt wrote:
VtSkier wrote:

Okay, what the hell. The rest of the poasts on this NG
are total crap. This seems to be the only skiing related
post so I'll bite.

IMO we need to know BOTH terms. Inside/outside ski has
a TURN as its reference. Uphill/downhill ski has the fall
line as its reference. At times they are both the same and
at times they are not. Sometimes Uphill/downhill ski has
no reference at all to a turn as in a traverse. Sometimes
the uphill ski and the outside ski are the same, as at
the beginning of a turn. Sometimes downhill ski and the
outside ski are the same, as at the end of a turn but
before you initiate the next turn.

I know, it's all very complicated, but with mileage, it
all becomes automatic and the words recede into
nothingness.



Both terminologies have utility, but when you're talking about turns (as
opposed to traversing, sideslipping, etc.) inside/outside is less
confusing than uphill/downhill.

When linking turns, both skis alternate between uphill/downhill and
between inside/outside. The uphill/downhill transition occurs when the
skis cross the fall line, the inside/outside transition happens when the
skier initiates the next turn.

The thing is, to cross the fall line, the skier doesn't have to do
anything really, just continue what he was doing a moment ago. In
contrast, initiating a new turn requires that the skier do something.
(crossover, crossunder, weight transfer, whatever...) The essence of
turn initiation is switching skis, where inside becomes outside; the
rest of the turn is basically just finishing what you started. So, it
makes sense to think about it turn by turn : the outside ski is the
outside ski for the entire turn, when you start the next turn, the other
ski will become the outside ski.

In contrast, having the names change (from uphill to downhill) in the
middle of a turn is confusing to beginners.

My $.02.


If I'm teaching, which I'm not. I would be careful to be clear that
inside/outside references are part of a turn or thinking about a
turn.

Uphill/downhill is a reference that I probably wouldn't get into
except to say "go downhill" until the student got onto terrain
where it becomes important. By that time, I think, the student
would have the inside/outside concept pretty well internalized.
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  #12  
Old April 25th 05, 09:29 PM
foot2foot
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"VtSkier" wrote in message
...

VtSkier wrote:


Uphill/downhill is a reference that I probably wouldn't get into
except to say "go downhill" until the student got onto terrain
where it becomes important. By that time, I think, the student
would have the inside/outside concept pretty well internalized.


Yea, you need it to talk about a traverse. It's still not that
complicated. Most of the weight on the downhill ski when you
traverse.

Try traversing with all the weight on the pinky edge of
the uphill ski.


  #13  
Old April 25th 05, 09:52 PM
VtSkier
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foot2foot wrote:
"VtSkier" wrote in message
...


VtSkier wrote:



Uphill/downhill is a reference that I probably wouldn't get into
except to say "go downhill" until the student got onto terrain
where it becomes important. By that time, I think, the student
would have the inside/outside concept pretty well internalized.



Yea, you need it to talk about a traverse. It's still not that
complicated. Most of the weight on the downhill ski when you
traverse.

Try traversing with all the weight on the pinky edge of
the uphill ski.


No thanks.
  #14  
Old April 25th 05, 10:00 PM
VtSkier
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foot2foot wrote:
"VtSkier" wrote in message
...


VtSkier wrote:



Uphill/downhill is a reference that I probably wouldn't get into
except to say "go downhill" until the student got onto terrain
where it becomes important. By that time, I think, the student
would have the inside/outside concept pretty well internalized.



Yea, you need it to talk about a traverse. It's still not that
complicated. Most of the weight on the downhill ski when you
traverse.

Try traversing with all the weight on the pinky edge of
the uphill ski.


IMO none of this stuff is particularly complicated taken
one concept at a time. It begins to get complicated for
the learner when concepts have to be combined. Then it
begins to make sense as they add miles, especially miles
with support from a good teacher. A good teacher in my
mind would more properly be called "a facilitator of learning"
to emphasize the positive and not be pedantic or authoritarian.

We'll never see that usage, but that's my dream of what the
word "teacher" will come to mean. This kind of individual has
been the best teachers in my life. 'Course I'm a bit anti-
authoritarian by nature anyway.
  #15  
Old April 25th 05, 10:04 PM
bdubya
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On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 21:30:31 -0700, "foot2foot"
wrote:

Crossover is extension at the moment of edge change.

Crossunder is retraction/flexion at the moment of edge change.


So is it then fair to say that one must be either crossed over OR
crossed under in order to turn?

bw
(PS- the brevity of your post was admirable.)
  #16  
Old April 25th 05, 10:17 PM
VtSkier
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bdubya wrote:
On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 21:30:31 -0700, "foot2foot"
wrote:


Crossover is extension at the moment of edge change.

Crossunder is retraction/flexion at the moment of edge change.



So is it then fair to say that one must be either crossed over OR
crossed under in order to turn?

bw
(PS- the brevity of your post was admirable.)


I also commented on this but don't remember any replies (not
that there weren't any, I just don't remember).

Thinking about what foot is saying above "feels" like what
I described. I said Crossover what what you did when
initiating a turn from a traverse. In fact extension is
what I'm doing at that time.

I said Crossunder was what you did when you linked turns
near the fall line. I would be retracting during at edge
change at that time.

Actually no, you wouldn't BE crossed over or crossed under
in order to turn, you would be crossing over or crossing
under in order to turn. Process rather than static position.
  #17  
Old April 25th 05, 11:06 PM
ant
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Walt wrote:

The thing is, to cross the fall line, the skier doesn't have to do
anything really, just continue what he was doing a moment ago. In
contrast, initiating a new turn requires that the skier do something.
(crossover, crossunder, weight transfer, whatever...)


being old fashioned, I reckon turning the skis comes in somewhere there,
too.

ant


  #18  
Old April 26th 05, 12:17 AM
foot2foot
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"bdubya" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 21:30:31 -0700, "foot2foot"
wrote:

Crossover is extension at the moment of edge change.

Crossunder is retraction/flexion at the moment of edge change.


So is it then fair to say that one must be either crossed over OR
crossed under in order to turn?

bw
(PS- the brevity of your post was admirable.)


Thank you. Yes no question. To turn right, your body simply
*must* be on the right side of the skis, however slight or
extreme. And also vice versa.


  #19  
Old April 26th 05, 12:20 AM
foot2foot
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"VtSkier" wrote in message
...
bdubya wrote:
On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 21:30:31 -0700, "foot2foot"
wrote:


Crossover is extension at the moment of edge change.

Crossunder is retraction/flexion at the moment of edge change.



So is it then fair to say that one must be either crossed over OR
crossed under in order to turn?

bw
(PS- the brevity of your post was admirable.)


I also commented on this but don't remember any replies (not
that there weren't any, I just don't remember).

Thinking about what foot is saying above "feels" like what
I described. I said Crossover what what you did when
initiating a turn from a traverse. In fact extension is
what I'm doing at that time.

I said Crossunder was what you did when you linked turns
near the fall line. I would be retracting during at edge
change at that time.


You could extend or retract to make linked turns near
the fall line. Either way would work. People can and do.

Actually no, you wouldn't BE crossed over or crossed under
in order to turn, you would be crossing over or crossing
under in order to turn. Process rather than static position.


But, once you had crossed over or under, you would *be*
crossed *over*. Unless you have some other term for it,
this is what crossover has meant for many decades now.


  #20  
Old April 26th 05, 12:21 AM
foot2foot
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"VtSkier" wrote in message
...

IMO none of this stuff is particularly complicated taken
one concept at a time. It begins to get complicated for
the learner when concepts have to be combined. Then it
begins to make sense as they add miles, especially miles
with support from a good teacher. A good teacher in my
mind would more properly be called "a facilitator of learning"
to emphasize the positive and not be pedantic or authoritarian.

We'll never see that usage, but that's my dream of what the
word "teacher" will come to mean. This kind of individual has
been the best teachers in my life. 'Course I'm a bit anti-
authoritarian by nature anyway.



How about, you show the student how the mechanics of
skiing work, and let *them* decide how they want to use
the mechanics, instead of trying to fit the student in some box
of a form of turn.

Is that free enough?


 




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