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Skate technique USST two cents



 
 
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  #11  
Old January 15th 04, 03:10 AM
Ken Roberts
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Default Skate technique USST two cents

Well it's not just _me_ that's talking about the need to have muscles
actively pushing for skating up hills.

Philip Nelson wrote
you seem to suffer from the idea that unless muscles
are actively pushing, nothing is happening.


Pete Vordenberg wrote:
The idea in V1 skating is to apply constant power
throughout the technique-cycle . . . continuous and
even power application by the legs.


Philip Nelson wrote:
Pete talks about for a very quick application of power . . .


Huh? Except of that one Hot Feet drill, all the talk about "quick" in
Vordenberg's post was about _poling_. And even the Hot Feet drill continues
on to a variation that starts like this: "To achieve a good forward driving
position with the leg, slow down the tempo . . . "

There was this guy named Thomas Alsgaard who was known for skating with a
_smooth_ style, notably not "quick". But Alsgaard did not seem to suffer
the deleterious results that Philip claims must follow from the "drawn out"
approach. By strange coincidence, Alsgaard using this style achieved better
World Cup race results than anybody on the US National Team, now or ever.

So I'm not feeling embarrassed about my choice of styles -- though I
sometimes am surprised by how poorly I _execute_ some of them in my videos
so far.

Ken


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  #12  
Old January 15th 04, 04:03 AM
Jeff Potter
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Default Skate technique USST two cents

Pete Vordenberg wrote:

If the athlete is "falling away" from their kick in V2 (only kicking
with the lower-leg) try this drill.


I have a question about the above. What does 'falling away' and
'lower-leg' mean? A bit fuzzy here.

First, focus only on initial
power. As you ski in the V2 technique simultaneously drop your weight
onto the kicking ski and the poles using only the stomach muscles.
Begin and end both the kick and pole motions quickly.


Hmmm, does this early snappy kick use bigger, upper leg muscles while
they're over the ski? Is that the idea? And is the idea that when one
doesn't balance on the ski one tends to fall off to the other ski and
have a wishy-washy low-leg kick and miss their chance to kick with the
big upper muscles?

Second, after
ten reps, as your speed increases, allow yourself more time to glide,
but keep the short dynamic push. For ten reps, count to three on each
leg before exploding DOWN onto your poles and skis to transfer your
weight to the other ski. Third, as your speed gets higher lengthen
the motion but keep the initial power quick. Eliminate the pause on
each ski ? and you're skiing.

[ ] No matter which style of V1 skating is being used, it is
important that the athlete is skating (rather than stepping) up a
hill.


This matches for me with a report here I read from someone who watched
inline racers in a hilly marathon and remarked that they didn't seem to
slow down on the uphills or change their technique or body position. No
struggling or stepping: just skated up the hill doing correct technique
same as everywhere else. I bet it applies to snow, too. In my mind
anyway. Someday I'll see how it plays out if I can ever get some ski days
in again! : ) ---We just got a LOVELY LOVELY 8" TODAY! And I groomed my
skate trails in the lovely lovely dark. Didn't need a headlamp. Overcast
but the snow had a nice glow. Saw kids sledding on the hill in the
distance. They had one flashlight and didn't mind the dark most of the
time either. Snow is nice in the dark.

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of outdoor/indoor do-it-yourself culture...
...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies...
...rare books on ski, bike, boat culture, plus a Gulf Coast thriller
about smalltown smuggling ... radical novels coming up!
...original downloadable music ... and articles galore!
plus national travel forums! HOLY SMOKES! 800-763-6923


  #13  
Old January 15th 04, 11:48 AM
John Forrest Tomlinson
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Default Skate technique USST two cents

Jeff Potter wrote in message
This matches for me with a report here I
read from someone who watched
inline racers in a hilly marathon
and remarked that they didn't seem to
slow down on the uphills


Wow, that's great Jeff. Just think how fast we could all be if we
didn't slow down uphill.

JFT
  #14  
Old January 15th 04, 05:54 PM
Roger Knight
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Default Skate technique USST two cents

Hello All-
After months away I stopped back to check out the news group and found
this discussion.....WOW! You know, I think that we should all be
psyched with Pete posting this stuff on here and not attack him(Yes
Ken, that means you). Let me say this: Pete knows more about technique
than any of us. PERIOD. He may not make some video or site famous
skiers who might illustrate his point, but he is up to date on what is
going on. Although we may not have turned out a Thomas Alsgaard
yet(and for those of you who actually believe that Thomas Alsgaard
didn't have a high turnover, you are WRONG! Thomas just looked
smoother because of his size and slightly modified style) we have
shown tremendous progress under the new USST regime. Pete is throwing
himself out there for all of us to take shots at....but does that
really help? Frankly, who are we anyway to go up against him? Pete was
one of the best racers in this country for years....he has seen more
World Cups and great skiers in person(not on some video) than any of
us will ever see. Pete knows what is going on....he might not sit
around and debate the physiology of whether muscles are actually be
used, but is this REALLY important? Really? I mean come on, do you
really actually believe that you know more than Pete? Seriously? This
is his job, and he does it well.....I bet that he has forgotten more
than most of us will ever know about technique....let's be realistis
here.

Pete and others, thanks for the positive flow on this board and in
real life. Don't get bogged down by those who will criticize no matter
what you say....you know better than to listen to this stuff. Keep the
ideas and positive results flowing, otherwise we will never improve as
a country....THANK YOU!
  #15  
Old January 15th 04, 06:16 PM
Tim Dudley
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Default Skate technique USST two cents

Roger - thanks for posting this. It says exactly what I wanted to say, but
couldn't figure out how to say it. I've also somewhat reluctantly decided
to stop reading Ken's posts, and most of the followups, because of what I
perceive as the generally analytical and head-based approach that he takes,
which I find largely boring, and which seems to take the beauty and fun and
flow out of the sport for me. (I also have strong opinions about people who
attack for the sake of attack, from which I will spare this forum.) I can
ski and think, but when I'm out there and I stop thinking and analyzing,
then I start skiing.

Pete has the qualifications and experience. We will all be much poorer if
he decides that it's not worth the flak to post to the group. It happened
before with Nathan; but fortunately he relented and resumed posting.

I would much rather read what Pete has to say about how to improve my
skiing than what Ken has to say - nothing personal, but Pete has the
credibility edge. I sincerely hope that he doesn't stop posting. I'm
certainly not suggesting that Ken stop posting, but I want to have the
choice of who to read, and who not to. I don't want Pete driven off the
list.


Tim

15/1/04 12:54, Roger Knight wrote:

Hello All-
After months away I stopped back to check out the news group and found
this discussion.....WOW! You know, I think that we should all be
psyched with Pete posting this stuff on here and not attack him(Yes
Ken, that means you). Let me say this: Pete knows more about technique
than any of us. PERIOD. He may not make some video or site famous
skiers who might illustrate his point, but he is up to date on what is
going on. Although we may not have turned out a Thomas Alsgaard
yet(and for those of you who actually believe that Thomas Alsgaard
didn't have a high turnover, you are WRONG! Thomas just looked
smoother because of his size and slightly modified style) we have
shown tremendous progress under the new USST regime. Pete is throwing
himself out there for all of us to take shots at....but does that
really help? Frankly, who are we anyway to go up against him? Pete was
one of the best racers in this country for years....he has seen more
World Cups and great skiers in person(not on some video) than any of
us will ever see. Pete knows what is going on....he might not sit
around and debate the physiology of whether muscles are actually be
used, but is this REALLY important? Really? I mean come on, do you
really actually believe that you know more than Pete? Seriously? This
is his job, and he does it well.....I bet that he has forgotten more
than most of us will ever know about technique....let's be realistis
here.

Pete and others, thanks for the positive flow on this board and in
real life. Don't get bogged down by those who will criticize no matter
what you say....you know better than to listen to this stuff. Keep the
ideas and positive results flowing, otherwise we will never improve as
a country....THANK YOU!



  #16  
Old January 15th 04, 07:09 PM
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Default Skate technique USST two cents

Pete, thanks for the great post. And, congrats on the excellent
results by the USST the past few years.

I've been actively thinking about not "skiing big" in my classic
skiing the last couple years and it is good to have that notion
reinforced by you.

This newsgroup, and life in general, is richer due to the diversity of
people/posters. I too give anything written by Ken Roberts nothing
more than a quick skin. I think he'd get more out of a 30-second
instruction session with Vordenberg than he will ever get from his
endless ramblings about the first-principle physics/physiology of ski
technique. But, to each his own.

Cheers,
Brian

.... who is very proud of this result (2002 Birkie):
23 Vordenberg, Pete 2:13:36
24 May, Brian 2:14:18

In article , Roger
Knight wrote:
Pete and others, thanks for the positive flow on this board and in
real life. Don't get bogged down by those who will criticize no matter
what you say....you know better than to listen to this stuff. Keep the
ideas and positive results flowing, otherwise we will never improve as
a country....THANK YOU!

  #17  
Old January 15th 04, 07:56 PM
Sly D. Skeez
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Default Skate technique USST two cents

"Ken Roberts" wrote in message ...
Yes, you could do the Body Position Drill by falling down onto the other
ski.


Is the goal here to ski with technique that looks good, or to ski fast
regardless of how it looks?

Jay Wenner
  #18  
Old January 15th 04, 07:58 PM
Jeff Potter
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Default Skate technique USST two cents

FWIW, I think that Ken knows his posts are a little nutty but I don't think
he means harm. He wants discussion and provocation, but he's not nasty or
anything, just a little teasey. Obviously, who cares if Marty Hall gets
peeved, it's going fast that counts. His analytical bent is harmless,
too...could be helpful to some.

If you ever want to see actually moronic, drive-away, vicious attack types
of posts, see rec.bikes.racing.

It does seem out of place to provoke, tease or be demanding of a busy
coach.

Any other inter/national coaches posting here? Ever? Sheesh! Let's be
grateful...and I'm sure we are.

I'm happy, like so many others here, that Pete decided to share what
they've been doing at the USST. He wasn't signing up for a debate. I'm sure
he knows that. And I likewise hope he keeps on reporting on what they're up
to over there!

PODIUM! PODIUM!

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of outdoor/indoor do-it-yourself culture...
...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies...
...rare books on ski, bike, boat culture, plus a Gulf Coast thriller
about smalltown smuggling ... radical novels coming up!
...original downloadable music ... and articles galore!
plus national travel forums! HOLY SMOKES! 800-763-6923


  #19  
Old January 15th 04, 09:50 PM
Griss
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Default Skate technique USST two cents

"Sly D. Skeez" wrote
Is the goal here to ski with technique that looks good, or to ski fast
regardless of how it looks?

Jay Wenner


First, not directed at all to Jay's comment, at all... I'd just like to
chime in to thank Pete for the wonderful post and to repeat what others have
said about not being taken aback by what anyone has posted in "debating"
some of the principles he conveyed.

I'm of the camp that techniques, drills and philosophies by on the snow
experts are worth more (to me) than theoretical musings, no matter how smart
or theoretically knowledgeable the person is. I'd sooner read one post a
year from the likes of Pete than daily posts by an intelligent person who is
just theorizing, but not skiing or coaching at an expert level. It's just
not of interest to me when it doesn't come from an on the snow expert.

Being from a medical background, there's biochemistry, physiology, anatomy,
biophysics, etc, and then there's the human body which defies the rules in
every *individual* case. Science, applied to the human body is in generally
in terms of ranges - not rules. That's why a medical professional gets
better after he/she learns all the exceptions and adaptations and why an
experienced coach who approaches his profession intelligently and
knowledgably, with an understanding of theory, is the expert, not the
scientist. However much theoretical musings will challenge and forward the
sport in the right context; they're just not interesting to me. Also, learn
to pick your battles, don't do it in the face of a real expert who only
posts to be friendly and helpful. He's not looking for a debate and will be
driven off whether you intend this or not. I've seen it in so many
newsgroups.

Second, as to what Jay just said: for a racer, I think the only criterion
is speed, but for some of us the goal can only be to look good. We all know
"really ugly" skiers who are strong, fit and fast and we just wish we could
keep up. When I see Ken's videos I think I probably "look" a lot better but
then hear how $%&ing fast he is (compared to me!). I just think, I wish I
could ski as fast as him regardless of how I look. But, it is also my
opinion, is that world class skiers don't go fast without looking pretty
damn good at least to my semi-educated eye. Maybe not PERFECT from the
theoretician's or even coach's point of view, but man they're within a
gnat's ass of awfully good technique by any standard. There are no truly
ugly world class skiers, in my opinion.

But some of us can't go fast and take a lot of pleasure in at least looking
(and feeling) good on skis - good technique is fun! Case in point: I'm a
pretty old guy (50) who didn't really start skiing for fitness until 3-4
years ago. I'm not a fat couch potato, but I am not really a naturally
strong or fast guy, never have been, and didn't ever do any serious training
during my youth or middle age. Before that I skied, hiked, biked some, but
it was strictly hit and miss, very casual. I bought my first non three-pin
gear (used, second or third tier) striding and skating skis about 6-7 years
ago, and my first top shelf stuff this winter. I entered my first race of
any sort 3 years ago. I did my first 50 k the same year. I do ski as much
as I can now (say 5 hours per week average for 5 months in the winter, which
is a lot for me and really as much as I can possibly squeeze in) and
actually try to follow a informal "program" to properly mix proper LSD and
one day a week of proper intensity. I still creep up "personal bests" in
terms of minutes/km every year and do a 50 k marathon every year, but I'm
SLOW (in the neighborhood of +50% compared to the winners!). What I've
noticed is that my friends who at one time were serious endurance athletes,
given the same state of condition and minutes/km times in the early winter,
improve their times MUCH more quickly given the less time and effort as me
(I pay attention to it and don't think I "overtrain"). I don't know if this
is residual base or genetics (probably both). They also have better
technique than me (especially striding) and so I thank my lucky stars I can
ski with them for a while in the early season - it's really great to ski
with and behind a better skier. Most of the people my speed are very crummy
skiers.

Realistically, with 5 hours per week, at age 50, with the lack of historical
base and genetics, can I continue to increase my fitness, yes. Can I
continually improve technique, yes. Can I enjoy skiing and take pride in my
technique - absolutely yes. Can I be fast (in terms of competing in age
group) regardless of pretty or ugly technique? - no. So it's technique or
nothing as far as being top level at something.

But I really will have modest improvements over time. For example, my goal
is to get another 10+% knocked off my 50K time, over the next couple of
years (I'm at 3:45 and would like to be between 3:15 and 3:30). I don't
expect be competitive with the national-masters level skiers who are in my
age group locally. But EVERY TIME I ski, I ENJOY working on good
technique - not from any theoretical basis, but just trying to emulate what
I _see_ from video clips, and integrate what I read, and occasional lesson
or pointers from people who have real life experience as teachers or
coaches. The theoretical stuff I read here (or used to), doesn't do one bit
of good.

So I guess my point is: for some of us, we really do like looking good in
our skiing (I mean feeling efficient and really feeling the flow, not
dressing snappy -although that's part of it as well) since we don't have a
reasonable expectation to be fast anyway.

Grissy.


  #20  
Old January 15th 04, 09:59 PM
John Forrest Tomlinson
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Default Skate technique USST two cents

Jeff Potter wrote in message
Any other inter/national coaches posting here? Ever? Sheesh!


I just got the Jenex ski technique video with Zach Caldwell and it seems excellent.

Let's be
grateful...and I'm sure we are.


I am.

Thanks to Vordenberg for his note.

JT
 




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