Skis on extreme edges

Is it possible to lean like this at recreational speeds? (20-25mph)

http://www.skiracing.com/news_photos...tz_mdh2_012404.
jpg

How do you ski like this? Do you lean towards the turn first, lean the hips
toward the center, and angulate the knee during the DOWN part after
up-unweighting? I tried the above procedure today, and don't think it
looked anything like it since my skis were only about 45 degrees to the
snow.

Jiyang Chen wrote:

Is it possible to lean like this at recreational speeds? (20-25mph)

http://www.skiracing.com/news_photos...tz_mdh2_012404.
jpg

How do you ski like this? Do you lean towards the turn first, lean the hips
toward the center, and angulate the knee during the DOWN part after
up-unweighting? I tried the above procedure today, and don't think it
looked anything like it since my skis were only about 45 degrees to the
snow.

It's a package - ski sidecut, lateral stiffness, longitudinal stiffness,
length; skier speed, strength and skill.

This is Rahlves at the Hannenkam, no? His skis are stiff, relatively
long, moderate sidecut; he's moving fast, and is stronger than an ox
with inordinate skill.

Ski manufacturers are making shorter skis, stiff laterally but quite
soft longitudinally so that less strong skiers with moderate skills
moving at slow speeds can lay over on the snow. For whatever it's worth.
IMO the skis aren't worth much in other situations.

You may need to get some specific carving skis, and develop some
specific skills, but you too can lay over on the snow. Get the right
skis. Start by carving an easy turn on well groomed moderately sloped
snow and each time you pass that area attempt to narrow the turn.
Eventually you can "look" like Daron, even if you're really moving at 20
mph instead of 80, and pulling 1.5 Gs instead of 6 Gs.

Better you learn to ski off-piste in deep powder.

"Jiyang Chen" wrote:

Is it possible to lean like this at recreational speeds? (20-25mph)

http://www.skiracing.com/news_photos...tz_mdh2_012404.
jpg


No, at least not to that level of angulation.

You need to reach a certain speed to be able to achieve the G forces
that will allow you to get that far cranked over whilst remaining
counterbalanced.

As an analogy, think of motorbike racing that you might have seen on
TV. In the fast corners you'll see them lean all the way over, but
this isn't possible at low speeds (ie: coming out of the pitlane etc),
the G's aren't there to counterbalance the lean angle.

G forces are a function of speed and the turning radius. Whilst it is
conceivably possible to pull 2-3 G's at 20mph, it would require an
impossibly small turn radius, which your skis can't do.

"Jiyang Chen" wrote in message
...
Is it possible to lean like this at recreational speeds? (20-25mph)


http://www.skiracing.com/news_photos...tz_mdh2_012404.
jpg

How do you ski like this? Do you lean towards the turn first, lean the
hips
toward the center, and angulate the knee during the DOWN part after
up-unweighting? I tried the above procedure today, and don't think it
looked anything like it since my skis were only about 45 degrees to the
snow.

Its a lot like biking on a super sticky road with super sticky tires. If
you just lean over, you're gonna fall. If you take a turn, you'll have a
little bit of force holding you up. If you take a super sharp turn, you'll
have even more G's to help counterbalance, and therefore can lean over
farther.

But lean too far, and those tires won't have enough weight on them to keep
them on the ground, and down you go.

Basically, the two main factors here are speed and turn radius. If you make
incredibly small turns, you can achieve those lean angles close to
recreational speeds. You still need the leg strength to take all the G's
though, and the balance to come out of it right.

Speed is, well, speed. Turn radius depends a lot on the skis. More
sidecut, softer vertical flex, and a few other factors will allow super
small turns, but is it really practical? You're better off just carving as
much as you need to, and leaning the right amount, for the turn, instead of
aiming to get super low to the ground. And, no offense, if you only ski at
"recreational speeds", you probably don't have the leg strength, balance,
or general skills to pull off a super short turn at huge edge angles.
Things happen FAST down there, even if you're moving pretty slowly.

As for your technique:
No leaning into the turn first! No no no! This will just put you off
balance. Notice that his upper body is actually fairly perpendicular to the
slope. This allows him to get enough force on that outside ski so it holds
its edge, and can take the incredible forces going into it without whipping
up and out of the snow. If he was leaning into the turn, his weight would
be very far inside and hard to transmit to the skis.
The hips, too, are fairly flat, considering how far down his stance is.
With hips angled into the turn too far, there won't be enough pressure on
the outside ski, and down you go.
The knee up is a result of keeping both skis on the snow a reasonable
distance apart. The knee comes up because there's nowhere else for that ski
to go, really. That one you can force a tiny bit, but overdo it and you're
just going to lose control and pressure on the inside ski.
As for the "up unweighting", don't think of moving up and down... when
you're carving like that, if you're doing it right, the skis will give you
so much power back that they'll whip right underneath you into the next
turn. You'll notice many racers almost unweight "down" if anything, letting
their knees come up and the skis almost (or even totally) off the snow,
while they drive their upper bodies down the fall line.

Go take a lesson about carving, and maybe on how to be comfortable at speed.
Disecting technique from a still picture is near impossible, especially to
the untrained eye - even video is hard unless you know what to look for.
And practicing bad technique sure ain't gonna help!

Jon Bond

On 25 Jan 2004 06:28:59 GMT, Baka Dasai
wrote:


Check these guys out for super low turns:

http://www.extremecarving.com/photos/photos.html

Pah! That's nothing! I can pretty much adopt these positions WHILE
STATIONARY!

J

"Jon Bond" wrote in message
...
As for the "up unweighting", don't think of moving up and down... when
you're carving like that, if you're doing it right, the skis will give you
so much power back that they'll whip right underneath you into the next
turn. You'll notice many racers almost unweight "down" if anything,
letting
their knees come up and the skis almost (or even totally) off the snow,
while they drive their upper bodies down the fall line.


Thanks to all for the info. About down unweighting... Do you move the
whole body up first and then extend the knees?

"Jiyang Chen" wrote in message
...

"Jon Bond" wrote in message
...
As for the "up unweighting", don't think of moving up and down... when
you're carving like that, if you're doing it right, the skis will give
you
so much power back that they'll whip right underneath you into the next
turn. You'll notice many racers almost unweight "down" if anything,
letting
their knees come up and the skis almost (or even totally) off the snow,
while they drive their upper bodies down the fall line.


Thanks to all for the info. About down unweighting... Do you move the
whole body up first and then extend the knees?

Um... I don't even think of "unweighting" anymore. Its not an up movement
so much as an over movement. The skis will unweight themselves when you're
carving hard, you just have to let them travel from side to side.

Seriously, best thing to do is go get a lesson.

Jon Bond

"lal_truckee" wrote in message
...
Jiyang Chen wrote:

Is it possible to lean like this at recreational speeds? (20-25mph)


http://www.skiracing.com/news_photos...tz_mdh2_012404.
jpg

How do you ski like this? Do you lean towards the turn first, lean the
hips
toward the center, and angulate the knee during the DOWN part after
up-unweighting? I tried the above procedure today, and don't think it
looked anything like it since my skis were only about 45 degrees to the
snow.

It's a package - ski sidecut, lateral stiffness, longitudinal stiffness,
length; skier speed, strength and skill.

This is Rahlves at the Hannenkam, no? His skis are stiff, relatively
long, moderate sidecut; he's moving fast, and is stronger than an ox
with inordinate skill.

Ski manufacturers are making shorter skis, stiff laterally but quite
soft longitudinally so that less strong skiers with moderate skills
moving at slow speeds can lay over on the snow.

Yes, greater torsional stiffness has made the world better for carving a
ski. A downhiller like Rahlves with descent ski specific strength (he's not
a big workout hound) can much more easily "stand" against the ski during a
turn with less turning pressure from his knees, feet and ankles, hence the
whole picture depicting the balancing act that goes along with it. The
turning forces starting with the knee and below can be more effective but a
lot less necessary. The ski is already manufactured for less turning
manipulation by the skier. Skis are now slightly more similar to carving a
snowboard, in that snowboarders do very little if any manipulation of the
board (boots are too soft) and basically stand and balance against the board
with slight subtle pressuring for steering. Subtle pressure is much more
important at higher speeds since too much pressure can inadvertently slow a
racer down. It's not unusual for racers to have ski boots for slalom that
are much stiffer than a boot for downhill.
The other nice thing about the radical sidecut carving skis is that they
can be skied at much shorter lengths (with more sensitivity to pressure)
which enables them to be better manipulated at lower speeds as well. A
racing ski can now be better adapted to ski more varied terrain than the old
race skis were. I don't like to ski bumps with race skis. However, it's
much easier to ski bumps on the shorter, radical sidecut skis than the
longer old ones.

Rick Swanger

As an analogy, think of motorbike racing that you might have seen on
TV. In the fast corners you'll see them lean all the way over, but
this isn't possible at low speeds (ie: coming out of the pitlane etc),
the G's aren't there to counterbalance the lean angle.

Interestingly enough, some national team members back in the 70s and 80s
would race motocross in the offseason because the body positioning and
angulation required for both sports are similar. My old J3 coach hurt
himself very badly doing this, in fact.

Brian Cohen wrote:

Interestingly enough, some national team members back in the 70s and 80s
would race motocross in the offseason because the body positioning and
angulation required for both sports are similar. My old J3 coach hurt
himself very badly doing this, in fact.

That is interesting.

Incidentally, have you seen european ice bike racing, they pull the
most extreme lean angles I've ever seen.