Avie rescue gear in the Spring?

So do you carry all yer gear in the Spring? I haven't found any stats, but from
most of the accident reports I've read from Spring Skiing, involve trauma, not
suffocation.

I do, and I've also had to argue with friends about it. Even thought the
risks may be much lower, I prefer to have a rule. In the backcountry, in
avalanche terrain, I always carry the the full kit. I used to make the
call on a day-by-day basis, but I found there were times when conditions
were not as I'd expected and I would have rather had the beacon and
probe. It's easier (for me) to have a rule that errs on the side of
safety. Folks with different experience and a different level of weight
fanaticism may disagree. YMMV.

-Greg

Greg schrieb:

So do you carry all yer gear in the Spring? I haven't found any
stats, but from
most of the accident reports I've read from Spring Skiing, involve
trauma, not
suffocation.


I do, and I've also had to argue with friends about it. Even thought the
risks may be much lower, I prefer to have a rule. In the backcountry, in
avalanche terrain, I always carry the the full kit. I used to make the
call on a day-by-day basis, but I found there were times when conditions
were not as I'd expected and I would have rather had the beacon and
probe. It's easier (for me) to have a rule that errs on the side of
safety. Folks with different experience and a different level of weight
fanaticism may disagree. YMMV.

I do so too, but sincerely, if in spring snow you unfortunately were
carried away by an avalanche you don't have any chance. The heavy wet
snow will kill you. So the avie gear is essentially for faster finding
of dead bodies ...

Greetings,

Ulrich

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In article ,
Kurt Knisely wrote:
I've been arguing w/ a friend about bringing along the beacon, probe and shovel
when Spring skiing. I'm talking about AFTER the snow has become isothermal, not
while it's changing from a Winter snowpack to a Spring snowpack.

I usually bring the shovel (useful for making seats and kickers--just kidding),
but leave the beacon and probe at home. I figure if you get caught in the
Spring (probably due to a late start), you have to worry about trauma not
suffocation.

So do you carry all yer gear in the Spring? I haven't found any stats, but from
most of the accident reports I've read from Spring Skiing, involve trauma, not
suffocation.


_ My answer would be no, but after this spring I'm seriously
rethinking that answer. The problem is that it may be spring
on the calendar, but it hasn't been spring in the snowpack.

_ Booker C. Bense





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Uli Hausmann wrote:


I do so too, but sincerely, if in spring snow you unfortunately were
carried away by an avalanche you don't have any chance. The heavy wet
snow will kill you. So the avie gear is essentially for faster finding
of dead bodies ...

I'm sure that my surviving buddies will appreciate whatever I can do to
get them back to the bar by happy hour. Then they can have a brew and
argue over who gets my gear. ;-)

-G

Uli Hausmann wrote:

I do so too, but sincerely, if in spring snow you unfortunately were
carried away by an avalanche you don't have any chance.

I agree but in spring it is still winter above say 3000m where I am so
there it is winter snow and all that implies. I take the gear anyway.

Hi Greg

snow will kill you. So the avie gear is essentially for faster finding
of dead bodies ...
I'm sure that my surviving buddies will appreciate whatever I can do to
get them back to the bar by happy hour. Then they can have a brew and
argue over who gets my gear. ;-)

I can tell you that Uli takes his avi gear nevertheless also on spring
touring. He also appreciates to discuss at the bar afterwards about
whatever to do with it. We did both last week:

On tour:
http://fa.utfs.org/mountains/2005/05...0-0074_IMG.jpg

Drinking Beer:
http://fa.utfs.org/mountains/2005/05...0-0038_IMG.jpg

Best regards, Florian

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In article ,
Kurt Knisely wrote:

So do you carry all yer gear in the Spring? I haven't found any stats, but from
most of the accident reports I've read from Spring Skiing, involve trauma, not
suffocation.


_ Here's a sobering tale of an incredibly lucky Utah skier.

http://www.telemarktalk.com/phpBB/vi...=asc&star t=0

_ If the URL messes up for some reason, go to the
www.telemarktips.com forum and look for Mt. Dana Avalanche
report.

_ I'm not sure if it says much about the arguement either way,
but it's a very good study of one of the hardest risks to manage
in backcountry skiing, group dynamics. Especially since there are
reports from both of the skiers invovled.

_ Booker C. Bense

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In article ,
Kurt Knisely wrote:
In article , Booker C. Bense says...

_ I'm not sure if it says much about the arguement either way,
but it's a very good study of one of the hardest risks to manage
in backcountry skiing, group dynamics. Especially since there are
reports from both of the skiers invovled.

I think it does. Trauma and the elements are the hazard in the Spring. He
wasn't completely buried...a beacon and probe would not have helped.

I thought the group dynamics were not too bad in this tale (I didn't fully read
their postscript).

_ I think shows a much more typical case than the typical one
often discussed. It's easier to make good decisions when people
argue or are having a bad time. When everybody's friends and
you're having a great time, it's much harder to throw the
wet blanket on the festivities.

Maybe you can explain to me the risky group dynamic behavior
they undertook?

_ That's not what I meant to say, I don't think they did anything
particularly risky, they just didn't manage the inherent risk of
group decisions very well. Skiing with other people changes your
perception of risk.

_ It's a long read with a lot of content free comments to drag
through, but the basic jist is that although alarm bells were
ringing, they both had a lot of confidence in the other's
judgement. This caused them to edit themselves internally
something like

"Hmm, this looks a bit sketchy, but the other guy isn't saying
anything so I won't say anything. After all he's a pretty savy
guy and we're both young and strong."

Both of the frankly state that in retrospect they made a lot
of decisions that they can't really justify. Something was
going on to cause them to make a series of bad decisions.
One of the interesting comments was this one from Julian:

"If I'm traveling with others, I can see a lot of value in
agreeing beforehand on a short set of preconditions and invariant
rules that will be used to guide decisions. I agree with Launce
in that we fell victim to the "social proof"
heuristic. I don't know him well, but it was pretty
obvious to me based on our conversations that he was an
experienced backcountry skier and climber. Plus, he lives and
skis in Utah, and he's still alive so that's got to
count for something Wink. I think we both became unconsciously
complacent as a result of having a partner that we
trusted. Unfortunately, we made the same errors in judgment at
virtually the same critical times."

Reading between the line, you could paraphase that as

"Because we're strong and experienced, the physics of
the snowpack don't apply to us." A rule that makes sense
for 5 strangers ought to apply for two friends or for
that matter if you're skiing alone. Do you think either
of them would have made the same choices if they had
been skiing solo ?

_ The other thing is that they didn't really have a plan and
talked themselves into descending something that they really
had not checked out. Bit by bit they got farther and farther
out on the limb and made it harder and harder to turn back.
While I'm reading between the lines a bit, I also think their
judgement was clouded by fatigue. At the end of a long day,
down always looks better than up.

_ Booker C. Bense




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