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#1
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Avie rescue gear in the Spring?
So do you carry all yer gear in the Spring? I haven't found any stats, but from most of the accident reports I've read from Spring Skiing, involve trauma, not suffocation. I do, and I've also had to argue with friends about it. Even thought the risks may be much lower, I prefer to have a rule. In the backcountry, in avalanche terrain, I always carry the the full kit. I used to make the call on a day-by-day basis, but I found there were times when conditions were not as I'd expected and I would have rather had the beacon and probe. It's easier (for me) to have a rule that errs on the side of safety. Folks with different experience and a different level of weight fanaticism may disagree. YMMV. -Greg |
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#2
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Greg schrieb:
So do you carry all yer gear in the Spring? I haven't found any stats, but from most of the accident reports I've read from Spring Skiing, involve trauma, not suffocation. I do, and I've also had to argue with friends about it. Even thought the risks may be much lower, I prefer to have a rule. In the backcountry, in avalanche terrain, I always carry the the full kit. I used to make the call on a day-by-day basis, but I found there were times when conditions were not as I'd expected and I would have rather had the beacon and probe. It's easier (for me) to have a rule that errs on the side of safety. Folks with different experience and a different level of weight fanaticism may disagree. YMMV. I do so too, but sincerely, if in spring snow you unfortunately were carried away by an avalanche you don't have any chance. The heavy wet snow will kill you. So the avie gear is essentially for faster finding of dead bodies ... Greetings, Ulrich |
#3
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
In article , Kurt Knisely wrote: I've been arguing w/ a friend about bringing along the beacon, probe and shovel when Spring skiing. I'm talking about AFTER the snow has become isothermal, not while it's changing from a Winter snowpack to a Spring snowpack. I usually bring the shovel (useful for making seats and kickers--just kidding), but leave the beacon and probe at home. I figure if you get caught in the Spring (probably due to a late start), you have to worry about trauma not suffocation. So do you carry all yer gear in the Spring? I haven't found any stats, but from most of the accident reports I've read from Spring Skiing, involve trauma, not suffocation. _ My answer would be no, but after this spring I'm seriously rethinking that answer. The problem is that it may be spring on the calendar, but it hasn't been spring in the snowpack. _ Booker C. Bense -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBQp4MD2TWTAjn5N/lAQELlwP/X7aL0VUWsDvwdc1yQ0DlrpvyuOIQanDp EkA1kv21YL17uUqcBkj8mzzVFBdrhK04+2HzB6bt/zUqz1iSfsccbp4Xc7jTukld PZ27XDOqD7aCZtTEnULnNkoVan4UWJ4Qw5YmvKkDeNpfqCTW+M efVWuFEjIaq5Df R+5S/z98GwA= =ffPs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
#4
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Uli Hausmann wrote:
I do so too, but sincerely, if in spring snow you unfortunately were carried away by an avalanche you don't have any chance. The heavy wet snow will kill you. So the avie gear is essentially for faster finding of dead bodies ... I'm sure that my surviving buddies will appreciate whatever I can do to get them back to the bar by happy hour. Then they can have a brew and argue over who gets my gear. ;-) -G |
#5
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Uli Hausmann wrote:
I do so too, but sincerely, if in spring snow you unfortunately were carried away by an avalanche you don't have any chance. I agree but in spring it is still winter above say 3000m where I am so there it is winter snow and all that implies. I take the gear anyway. |
#6
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Hi Greg
snow will kill you. So the avie gear is essentially for faster finding of dead bodies ... I'm sure that my surviving buddies will appreciate whatever I can do to get them back to the bar by happy hour. Then they can have a brew and argue over who gets my gear. ;-) I can tell you that Uli takes his avi gear nevertheless also on spring touring. He also appreciates to discuss at the bar afterwards about whatever to do with it. We did both last week: On tour: http://fa.utfs.org/mountains/2005/05...0-0074_IMG.jpg Drinking Beer: http://fa.utfs.org/mountains/2005/05...0-0038_IMG.jpg Best regards, Florian |
#7
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
In article , Kurt Knisely wrote: So do you carry all yer gear in the Spring? I haven't found any stats, but from most of the accident reports I've read from Spring Skiing, involve trauma, not suffocation. _ Here's a sobering tale of an incredibly lucky Utah skier. http://www.telemarktalk.com/phpBB/vi...=asc&star t=0 _ If the URL messes up for some reason, go to the www.telemarktips.com forum and look for Mt. Dana Avalanche report. _ I'm not sure if it says much about the arguement either way, but it's a very good study of one of the hardest risks to manage in backcountry skiing, group dynamics. Especially since there are reports from both of the skiers invovled. _ Booker C. Bense -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBQqXPNGTWTAjn5N/lAQGEAwP/VfMF7mZgCfMpgPQCEaJ9egAM9SPg0Qlk IHg5zHqQFKfLFB2mZNfQ9XuO/8p4JVfyzXyPiPCMHNP9WCJRpXa/IFa7FQo/Nnhc RTA/kpk1WT7isGvjS94EVDktMHW78nGw36eX8LXi5o60OODLWpoHBh NBgAKNpYAq tZgXD11j0LI= =MN0N -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
#8
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
In article , Kurt Knisely wrote: In article , Booker C. Bense says... _ I'm not sure if it says much about the arguement either way, but it's a very good study of one of the hardest risks to manage in backcountry skiing, group dynamics. Especially since there are reports from both of the skiers invovled. I think it does. Trauma and the elements are the hazard in the Spring. He wasn't completely buried...a beacon and probe would not have helped. I thought the group dynamics were not too bad in this tale (I didn't fully read their postscript). _ I think shows a much more typical case than the typical one often discussed. It's easier to make good decisions when people argue or are having a bad time. When everybody's friends and you're having a great time, it's much harder to throw the wet blanket on the festivities. Maybe you can explain to me the risky group dynamic behavior they undertook? _ That's not what I meant to say, I don't think they did anything particularly risky, they just didn't manage the inherent risk of group decisions very well. Skiing with other people changes your perception of risk. _ It's a long read with a lot of content free comments to drag through, but the basic jist is that although alarm bells were ringing, they both had a lot of confidence in the other's judgement. This caused them to edit themselves internally something like "Hmm, this looks a bit sketchy, but the other guy isn't saying anything so I won't say anything. After all he's a pretty savy guy and we're both young and strong." Both of the frankly state that in retrospect they made a lot of decisions that they can't really justify. Something was going on to cause them to make a series of bad decisions. One of the interesting comments was this one from Julian: "If I'm traveling with others, I can see a lot of value in agreeing beforehand on a short set of preconditions and invariant rules that will be used to guide decisions. I agree with Launce in that we fell victim to the "social proof" heuristic. I don't know him well, but it was pretty obvious to me based on our conversations that he was an experienced backcountry skier and climber. Plus, he lives and skis in Utah, and he's still alive so that's got to count for something Wink. I think we both became unconsciously complacent as a result of having a partner that we trusted. Unfortunately, we made the same errors in judgment at virtually the same critical times." Reading between the line, you could paraphase that as "Because we're strong and experienced, the physics of the snowpack don't apply to us." A rule that makes sense for 5 strangers ought to apply for two friends or for that matter if you're skiing alone. Do you think either of them would have made the same choices if they had been skiing solo ? _ The other thing is that they didn't really have a plan and talked themselves into descending something that they really had not checked out. Bit by bit they got farther and farther out on the limb and made it harder and harder to turn back. While I'm reading between the lines a bit, I also think their judgement was clouded by fatigue. At the end of a long day, down always looks better than up. _ Booker C. Bense -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBQqYZ8WTWTAjn5N/lAQG+JQP/QZWIj2tFXtAHS0F1iLiakcDXdMsdm6xV YZTktQpQPUKLmKlgeKQ9R9JO6rdAcieH7V4SKeIo+thLWs4bk9 yPOhuhrOMWXJBQ 3s2CdZBqUmVJwzBazez7vVIXmbaLYJA9mno7CY4qm7Z/MOaKHs/NN7G4KxITrF6i VyjC0cZsITs= =IskU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
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