A V2 timing question

I've recently tried roller skiing (skate) and looked at a few
instructional videos and am confused by the advice I've found and been
given in a few lessons over the years.

My question is: how much glide and/or hangtime does one strive for over
the poling side (powerside) ski before one poles? Clearly, this is
affected by terrain and conditions but let's say for the sake of
argument that it is on flat terrain and moderately fast conditions.

I used to plant and pole almost at same time as the ski landed so the
V2 had a two part rhythm: pole/glide on the power side and then glide
on the other side. Then a couple of years ago an instructor informed
me that it was really a 3 parts motion
1. Glide on powerside...hang there for a bit
2. pole on powerside
3. glide on opposite ski
repeat

When I try and have a noticeable glide on the powerside before poling I
can really hang out over the ski for a quite a while if I put my mind
to it and get my balance together and then when I add the poling it
really makes for a long stride but it's an asymetric stride as I spend
a lot more time over the powerside and as a consequence end up drifting
off course to the power side.

Of course, I could compensate for this by either a. making the glide
side ski angle greater (off to the side) to bring me back on course (my
instinct tells me this is not the way to go) or b. making an extra
effort to glide extra long on the weak side (my instinct tells me that
this will lead to stalling and is also a bad idea).

When I watch pros skate on the flats using V2 they seems to spend just
a fraction of a second over the powerside ski before poling but then
they are probably going a lot faster than me.

So can anyone shed any light on what I should be aiming for? Clearly
the long glide before poling on the powerside is great for balance and
a huge long glide on that side but it just seems too asymentric.

Thanks for any advice or a pointer to a book or video that discusses
this question in detail.

Regards
Chris

You are confusing V2 and V1 and V2-alt all in one question.

V2 is symmetric, poling on both sides. V1 has a power side
and a glide side. V2-alternate also has a power side
and a non-power side. When you say "I used to plant and pole almost
at same time as the ski landed", that is V1. The 3 steps you
listed from an instructor sounds like V2-alt. So maybe you just need
to realize that you used to ski almost exclusively V1
(and that is very common) and the instructor was trying to
teach you V2-alt.

I wish there was a FAQ page for r.s.n. that included a
short video clip demoing V2, V1, and V2-alt., just to
define them. These are US - mostly terms. Canadians and
Europeans use other names for them.

For V2-alt, I think there should be no hang time before poling
over the ski. Your ski goes down as you kick off the
non-power side, you rise over that ski bringing the hips
forward, poles are planted as your body continues in that arc
and the pole push is sychronized with the kick on that
power side. It is a fast, continuous flow.

So much for trying to write about technique. We should ban
all technique posts, unless they come with attached mpeg
videos!

Chris Crawford wrote:
I've recently tried roller skiing (skate) and looked at a few
instructional videos and am confused by the advice I've found and
been
given in a few lessons over the years.

My question is: how much glide and/or hangtime does one strive for
over
the poling side (powerside) ski before one poles? Clearly, this is
affected by terrain and conditions but let's say for the sake of
argument that it is on flat terrain and moderately fast conditions.

I used to plant and pole almost at same time as the ski landed so the
V2 had a two part rhythm: pole/glide on the power side and then glide
on the other side. Then a couple of years ago an instructor informed
me that it was really a 3 parts motion
1. Glide on powerside...hang there for a bit
2. pole on powerside
3. glide on opposite ski
repeat

V2 (dp on both sides) = glide, pole, glide, pole, glide
V2 alt (dp on one side) = glide, pole, glide; glide, pole, glide
V1 ("dp" on one side) = pole, glide, glide; pole, glide, glide

Hope that helps. Comfort on rollerskis and on snow takes awhile to come
by. Get a lesson if you can.
Gene

Chris Crawford wrote:

I've recently tried roller skiing (skate) and looked at a few
instructional videos and am confused by the advice I've found and been
given in a few lessons over the years.

My question is: how much glide and/or hangtime does one strive for over
the poling side (powerside) ski before one poles? Clearly, this is
affected by terrain and conditions but let's say for the sake of
argument that it is on flat terrain and moderately fast conditions.

I used to plant and pole almost at same time as the ski landed so the
V2 had a two part rhythm: pole/glide on the power side and then glide
on the other side. Then a couple of years ago an instructor informed
me that it was really a 3 parts motion
1. Glide on powerside...hang there for a bit
2. pole on powerside
3. glide on opposite ski
repeat

When I try and have a noticeable glide on the powerside before poling I
can really hang out over the ski for a quite a while if I put my mind
to it and get my balance together and then when I add the poling it
really makes for a long stride but it's an asymetric stride as I spend
a lot more time over the powerside and as a consequence end up drifting
off course to the power side.

Of course, I could compensate for this by either a. making the glide
side ski angle greater (off to the side) to bring me back on course (my
instinct tells me this is not the way to go) or b. making an extra
effort to glide extra long on the weak side (my instinct tells me that
this will lead to stalling and is also a bad idea).

When I watch pros skate on the flats using V2 they seems to spend just
a fraction of a second over the powerside ski before poling but then
they are probably going a lot faster than me.

So can anyone shed any light on what I should be aiming for? Clearly
the long glide before poling on the powerside is great for balance and
a huge long glide on that side but it just seems too asymentric.

Thanks for any advice or a pointer to a book or video that discusses
this question in detail.

Regards
Chris

Chris Crawford wrote
how much glide and/or hangtime does one strive for
over the poling side (power-side) ski before one poles?

Sounds to me like Chris is actually talking about Open Field Skate (a.k.a.
"V2 Alternate", "2-skate", "single-dance") and not V2 (a.k.a. "1-skate",
"double-dance"). Because there is no "power-side" in V2. Both sides are
supposed to be "power" sides for both the leg and the arm in V2.

Answer 1: If you _enjoy_ glide (I hope so, otherwise why are you doing the
sport?), then more is more -- make it big. That's why many ski-skaters enjoy
Open Field Skate more than V2: By poling on only one side, OFS offers
enough _time_ in the stroke-cycle to take a long glide and enjoy it fully,
and lets you save up your poling power to focus on one big push and make
that glide even longer. Hang-time = Fun-time. Asymmetry = Joy.

Answer 2: If you're trying to go _faster_, then Yes it's good to be
concerned about possible "dead spots" in the stroke cycle.

When I watch pros skate on the flats using V2 they seems
to spend just a fraction of a second over the powerside ski before poling.

Yes that's what I see when I look at the flat-terrain V2 technique in the
Zorsi and Elofsson videos in JanneG's Technic collection. In pause and
slow-motion there's a very clear gap of several video frames before the
start of the next pole-push. (It's not easy to find actual-competition
footage of elite racers doing Open Field Skate.)

The basic physics + bone-joint geometry implies that the most effective
skate-leg-push requires that the hip finish lower than it starts. And
implies that the most effective double-push requires that the hips and
shoulders start higher than they finish. Therefore to get the most effect
out of both, there's got to be a _gap_ between the finish of one stroke and
the start of the next -- to move the hips from low to high -- and this
requirement holds even more for V2 than OFS.

So for a racer, this phase of the stroke-cycle is not really about "glide
and/or hangtime". It's about "get the hips and shoulders up and forward
quick".

And this phase is actually not a "gap" in effective work for a racer.
Because the action of moving the racer's upper body upward increases its
gravitational potential energy. Then when it drops down onto the pole-push
at the start of the next stroke, this potential energy is released into
added forward-propulsion work.

So what's the right gap-duration for you?
There's no rule. It's a trade-off. Depends on your off-season training:
power of arms versus abdominals versus legs -- kayaking? bicycling?
rollerskiing? (e.g. like strong abdominals with average legs might call for
longer gap and bigger up-down motion to exploit the double-pole push more).
Depends on the terrain: hill-climb is usually going to call for a shorter
gap and smaller up-down motion. Depends . . . Depends. Can't just copy the
gap-length or gap-ratio from an elite-racer video.

Actually when I look at Zorsi's V2, I see him starting to lift his hips up
even before he finishes the leg-push. So he's compromising his leg-push
effectiveness in order to start the next pole-push quicker and from a higher
more effective position. Is that compromise right for me? for you?

I think the only way to find the optimum hips-and-shoulders-up-forward "gap"
is lots of careful personal time-trials. You can try that. Meanwhile I'm
going to enjoy the glide.

Ken

P.S. What about V1 skate?
Employing V1 (a.k.a. "offset", "paddle-dance") to climb up a steep hill can
avoid this gap by _not_ trying to achieve the most effective pole-push. The
"strategy theme" of V1 is to compromise pole-push to achieve higher
peak-force-push and power-output from the stronger leg muscles.
____________________________________
Chris Crawford wrote
I've recently tried roller skiing (skate) and looked at a few
instructional videos and am confused by the advice I've found and been
given in a few lessons over the years.

My question is: how much glide and/or hangtime does one strive for over
the poling side (powerside) ski before one poles? Clearly, this is
affected by terrain and conditions but let's say for the sake of
argument that it is on flat terrain and moderately fast conditions.

I used to plant and pole almost at same time as the ski landed so the
V2 had a two part rhythm: pole/glide on the power side and then glide
on the other side. Then a couple of years ago an instructor informed
me that it was really a 3 parts motion
1. Glide on powerside...hang there for a bit
2. pole on powerside
3. glide on opposite ski
repeat

When I try and have a noticeable glide on the powerside before poling I
can really hang out over the ski for a quite a while if I put my mind
to it and get my balance together and then when I add the poling it
really makes for a long stride but it's an asymetric stride as I spend
a lot more time over the powerside and as a consequence end up drifting
off course to the power side.

Of course, I could compensate for this by either a. making the glide
side ski angle greater (off to the side) to bring me back on course (my
instinct tells me this is not the way to go) or b. making an extra
effort to glide extra long on the weak side (my instinct tells me that
this will lead to stalling and is also a bad idea).

When I watch pros skate on the flats using V2 they seems to spend just
a fraction of a second over the powerside ski before poling but then
they are probably going a lot faster than me.

So can anyone shed any light on what I should be aiming for? Clearly
the long glide before poling on the powerside is great for balance and
a huge long glide on that side but it just seems too asymentric.

Thanks for any advice or a pointer to a book or video that discusses
this question in detail.

Regards
Chris

____________________________________

Bob Larson wrote
I wish there was a FAQ page for r.s.n. that
included a short video clip demoing V2, V1,
and V2-alt., just to define them.

http://roberts-1.com/xcski/skate/faq/#names
has no special relationship to r.s.n., but does include both U.S. and
Canadian terms for each technique.

We should ban all technique posts, unless
they come with attached mpeg videos!

Good point -- how about this:
http://roberts-1.com/xcski/skate/resources/video
lists the MPEG technique video clips on JanneG's website, which are what I
refer to frequently in my posts about technique (including this thread).

V2 skate:
* Christian Zorsi = Zorsi.mpg
* Per Elofsson V2 = Perelof10.mpg
(also first half of Alsgard1.mpg)

V1 skate:
* Carl Swenson (USA): Swenson2.mpg
* Markus Hasler: Hasler1.mpg
* Fulvio Valbusa: Valbusa1.mpg
* Per Elofsson V1 = start of Perelof4.mpg

Open Field Skate (V2 Alternate, 1-skate)
* don't know any on the Web yet.
(Please tell me about a good video clip of this technique on the Web, and
I'll include a link to it on this page. Preference to clips from actual
competition in a real race. That's the superiority of JanneG's video
clips -- they show how the best racers do it when they're skiing to win, not
just a demo to comply with their coach's latest simplified theory).

I don't claim that my ideas and video links are all correct or the best, but
I also try to provide links to most other places on the Web (and off it)
that have a reasonable percentage of useful XC ski technique stuff -- even
if I don't agree with it:
http://roberts-1.com/xcski/skate/resources

I'd be glad for suggestions of links to add to that.

Ken

Looks like the technique videos on Janne's page are short of
V2-alt. There is a sequence at the start of the
AngererAttackSkate.mpg
before the first turn that has some V2-alt footage, but not the
greatest
example.

By the way, I don't know if you took it this way, but my previous post
was in response to the top of the thread, not to your posting.

-Bob

"Ken Roberts" wrote:
(Please tell me about a good video clip of this technique on the Web, and
I'll include a link to it on this page. Preference to clips from actual
competition in a real race. That's the superiority of JanneG's video
clips -- they show how the best racers do it when they're skiing to win,
not
just a demo to comply with their coach's latest simplified theory).

There's a lot of V2 alternate/2 skate on Janne's technique clip page
http://avari181.mt.luth.se/Technic/ . All of these clips are from that page
(but note that not everything is in alphabetical order on that page).

"Sodergren-Brink.mpg"
"skate1.mpg" (1:32 into it, Muhlegg topping a rise with it)
"Perelof2.mpg" (the guy in the back)
"Fredrik2.mpg"
"elofsson-isometsa3.mpg"
"BrinkSkateflatsection.mpg" (one stroke of it, plus the guy the in back)
"ThomasSprint.mpg" (one stroke of V2-alt before going into V2)
"Swenson.mpg"
"Alsgard_legskating.avi"

There's also some of V2-alternate in the other clips on fast turns.

Thanks Ken and others for replies on what I'm sure is a hackneyed
topic. After your clarifications, what I was describing should have
been called V2-Alternating.

I have learned that the difference between V2-A and V1 would be the
hang time gliding on the powerside ski before poling found in V2-A.
Furthermore the amount of hang time varies quite a bit depending on all
the usual factors.

I suppose as this hang time goes to zero (when heading up a hill for
example), the V2-A will degenerate into a V1.

Now I think I'll go look at some of the MPEGs listed. Thanks again.
Chris

"Chris Crawford" wrote in message
oups.com...
Thanks Ken and others for replies on what I'm sure is a hackneyed
topic. After your clarifications, what I was describing should have
been called V2-Alternating.

I have learned that the difference between V2-A and V1 would be the
hang time gliding on the powerside ski before poling found in V2-A.
Furthermore the amount of hang time varies quite a bit depending on all
the usual factors.

I suppose as this hang time goes to zero (when heading up a hill for
example), the V2-A will degenerate into a V1.

Now I think I'll go look at some of the MPEGs listed. Thanks again.
Chris


Hi Chris,
Regardless of the tempo, the *rhythm* of V2A (it's called alternate in the
US; not alternating) is completely different from V1. You need to stop
reading Ken's posts until *after* you take a lesson from a qualified
instructor. I would venture to guess that quite a few people on this ng get
feedback (lessons, coaching, whatever) from real, live humans at least once
a season; I know I do.

Where do you ski? I'm sure some one in this ng can tell you where to find a
good instructor.

good luck and enjoy,
Bob
sorry Ken, but he needs the basics before subtleties of body mechanics will
do him any good.

Thanks Bob - I'm in Denver and would love to get a few lessons at the
locations near me. Right now about all I can do is head up to a random
ski resort and ask for a lesson from whoever happens to be around. Not
exactly a sure bet.

Chris