Slipping turn vs. carving turn revisited

Slipping turn? Never heard about it? You're probably right. After some
serious debates with some EpicSki's bears, (who advertising themselves
as the "orthodox" PSIA pro/teaching/skiing,) with their jargons
skidded-carve, scarve, skarve, or brushed-carve, as well as
Railroad-Track (RRT), and Arc-to-Arc, etc., etc., flying all over the
places, all carving turn variant techniques, I was only then realized
that most American skiers, at least, in the PSIA strain of skiing, has
little or no concept of "slipping turn." And every time you talk about
the "slipping turn," most people responded would turn the subject into
the "skidding turn," and bashing or thrashing about. Can't blame them
though, for PSIA has never taught them or developed/utilized the
concept of the "slipping turn." As the "slipping turn," as in
physics/physical sense, is as fundamental as a functional ski design,
not sure is PSIA overlooked its functionality, or they don't like to
play a full deck?

What is a "slipping turn"?

According to physics laws of motion, an object traveling in a curved
path exhibits three kinds of turn: a balanced turn, a skidded turn, and
a slipped turn. A balanced turn is when the object follows the curved
path in sync, a skidded turn turns more than the curved path
(over-turn), and a slipped turn turns less than the curved path
(under-turn). In skiing, a carved turn, where the skis' tails
follows/travels through the same space as the tips, is a balanced turn.
A skidded turn, with the skis' tails travel outward (outside of the
curved path) faster than the tips, result in an over-turn (changing too
much a direction). A slipped turn, with the skis' tips travel outward
faster than the tails, doesn't turn enough, so it's an under-turn (not
enough direction changing).

Given the characteristics of these three turns, a carved turn maintains
its turning ability without losing its speed, so it's highly prized
technique, and every body likes to "talk" about it. Nevertheless, few
see the caveat that the skier must continue to turn to carve, thus
reduces the skier's forward speed.

Most of parallel turns are done with various skidded turn, where
skidding serves dual purposes of braking and turning. When done it
properly, a skidded parallel turn has better speed and line control
abilities, thus, it's an effective and efficient, as well as an elegant
technique. However, as "skidding" is rated as low level technique,
people are, in general, shunned about "talking"/"studying" about it.
So, in a way, most of them have never really learned the proper
function, or techniques, of the skidding or skidded parallel turn.

While both skidding and slipping rob the speed/energy of the ski,
however, slipping turn differs from the skidding turn is that slipping
turn, due to its under-turn, skis a straighter line than the carving
turn, so it may maintain a higher "forward"/"downward" speed. Slipped
turn is not necessarily slower than the carved turn. So how's the rest
of technique stack up vs. carving turn?

Why "slipping turn"?

As a slipped turn slides with the gravity, it is easy to initiate, to
perform, so it's an easier technique than carving turn. As slipping
turn is a docile technique, which also makes it a safer technique than
carving turn. The carving technique is "fighting" (by the virtue of
"carving") the gravity, when the turn goes sour the natural tendency is
to fight it with skidding, and skidding, as it over-turns, exaggerates
the "fighting" even more, and when it fails, the tails of the skis wash
out downward and the skier falls backward, there's no recovery from
this kind of mishap. Moreover, one of major causes of serve skiing
injure accidence is the skier tumbles heels over head and loses control
of the skis when s/he gets caught on an edge, intentionally or not.
Carving turn's "carving" technique only exposes the skier more to that
danger. On the other hand, with slipping turn one may recover a turn
gone sour by a pair of strong legs (to maintain the balance as the
skier slides). And when it fails, the skier only slides some more and
the "fall" would not be "heels over head." Slipping turn is a safer
technique than carving turn.

How to "slipping turn"?

Slipping turn is easier to explain with an example of "straightlining."
With two skis parallel, flat, and equally weighed on the snow, a skier
travels straight. If the skier is to slip a ski (say left ski), so the
left ski slows down a bit, however, the right ski remains on its
original speed, the different speed of the two skis causes the two
skis' track to turn left. If the skier has maintained the balance on
the skis, s/he would have turned. Then, how to slip a ski? Put the
outside edge (in relation to the skier's body/foot) of the inside ski
(in relation to the turn) at an angle to the line that the ski is
traveling on. The bigger the angle displays more deviation power; more
deviation power, the bigger the turn. Another way of saying/doing is to
think/treat the two skis with their functions: one "braker," and one
"runner." As braker slips it brakes the speed of that ski while the
runner runs flat, so it is faster than the braker; as the skis' track
turn, so is the skier.

The slipping turn is initiated on the inside ski, balanced on the hip
angulation, and skis faster on a straighter line, so it is simple,
efficient, and fast, one versatile technique for all-mountain
free-skiing.

Your thought?


IS

"taichiskiing" wrote in message
oups.com...
Slipping turn? Never heard about it? You're probably right. After some
serious debates with some EpicSki's bears, (who advertising themselves
as the "orthodox" PSIA pro/teaching/skiing,) with their jargons
skidded-carve, scarve, skarve, or brushed-carve, as well as
Railroad-Track (RRT), and Arc-to-Arc, etc., etc., flying all over the
places, all carving turn variant techniques, I was only then realized
that most American skiers, at least, in the PSIA strain of skiing, has
little or no concept of "slipping turn."

snip

Your thought?

The wind was flapping a temple flag. Two monks were arguing about it. One
said the flag was moving; the other said the wind was moving. Arguing back
and forth they could come to no agreement. The Sixth Patriarch said: "It is
neither the wind nor the flag that is moving. It is your mind that is
moving".

dizzy wrote:
"taichiskiing" wrote in message
oups.com...
Slipping turn? Never heard about it? You're probably right. After some
serious debates with some EpicSki's bears, (who advertising themselves
as the "orthodox" PSIA pro/teaching/skiing,) with their jargons
skidded-carve, scarve, skarve, or brushed-carve, as well as
Railroad-Track (RRT), and Arc-to-Arc, etc., etc., flying all over the
places, all carving turn variant techniques, I was only then realized
that most American skiers, at least, in the PSIA strain of skiing, has
little or no concept of "slipping turn."

snip

Your thought?

The wind was flapping a temple flag. Two monks were arguing about it. One
said the flag was moving; the other said the wind was moving. Arguing back
and forth they could come to no agreement. The Sixth Patriarch said: "It is
neither the wind nor the flag that is moving. It is your mind that is
moving".

That's a very enlightening story, thanks.

Do you slipping turn?


IS

"taichiskiing" wrote in message
ups.com...
That's a very enlightening story, thanks.

Do you slipping turn?

No, thanks.

dizzy wrote:
"taichiskiing" wrote in message
ups.com...
That's a very enlightening story, thanks.

Do you slipping turn?

No, thanks.

So it's enlightening but no enlightenment, eh?

Actually, the mechanics of slipping turn is way easy than carving turn;
all you need to do is to get used to "stand" on your little ball of
your inside foot and maintain the balance and let the gravity to do its
work. Yes, that's "ride the skis."

When you are able to "surf" the gravity, the skiing reaches to a new
high.

Flatboarding, anyone?
IS

taichiskiing wrote:

Snip...

...one versatile technique for all-mountain
free-skiing.

Your thought?

I agree. It can be another useful skill in a good skiers bad of tricks
for all-mountain free skiing. Why in every free run I take, I may
carve most of my turns, slip a few skids in there, point'em straight
down the hill here and there, and maybe even slip a few turns. It's
all good when all-mountain free skiing. Nobody should be locked into
one type of turn style or one body position. Skiing is a dynamic
sport.
--
Marty

Marty wrote:
taichiskiing wrote:

Snip...

...one versatile technique for all-mountain
free-skiing.

Your thought?

I agree. It can be another useful skill in a good skiers bad of tricks
for all-mountain free skiing. Why in every free run I take, I may
carve most of my turns, slip a few skids in there, point'em straight
down the hill here and there, and maybe even slip a few turns. It's
all good when all-mountain free skiing.

It is, nevertheless, that's why I was wondering why the slipping turn
was never been taught or discussed.

Nobody should be locked into
one type of turn style or one body position.

Yes, and no, I like to track my own ski tracks (contour skiing) when I
ski on blues, so it's "one body position" all over again; that is, I'd
probably use the same technique at the same place in both runs, so to
produce a set of parallel tracks.

Skiing is a dynamic sport.

It is, but more obvious with the technique "ride the skis," where the
skiing is done by shifting weight, i.e. moving the body core/Center of
Gravity (CoG), to lead the turns. And the feet/skis then do whatever
necessary to catch up and to maintain a comfortable support of the CoG,
and since the balance is hinged on the moving CoG, so "ride the skis"
skis/rides with a dynamic balance. That is one style that fits in all
all-mountain free skiing.


IS

--
Marty

taichiskiing wrote:
(snip)

It is, nevertheless, that's why I was wondering why the slipping turn
was never been taught or discussed.

Ichin Shen,
Good morning.
Guess it's time for me to jump in here again.

First let's get some terms straight.
IIRC, A carved turn would be what my PSIA friends call
a "rail" turn or a "pure carved" turn. A turn with next
to no skidding of any kind wherein the skis arc around
depending on the side cut and bend to describe the arc
radius.

Then,
A skidded turn is a turn in which the tip edges are
engaged and the radius of the turn is described by moving
the tails of the skis outward by some mechanism to make
a turn.

In both of the turns above, there is a constant or
DECREASING radius in the turn. The carved turn doesn't
scrub off speed and so to use it to slow down you
must continue your turn well across the fall line to
lengthen your path. The skidded turn scrubs off speed
quite efficiently and therein lies its main value. You
can stay pretty much in the fall line while maintaining
speed control.

You have characterized a skidded turn as like a car
which oversteers in a corner. The rear end hangs out.

And the last,
Is a "slipped" turn. You have characterized this as
like a car which understeers. That is the tendency
of the FRONT wheels to skid, causing the car to seem
to go straight regardless of steering wheel input. It's
not really that, that's just the driver's impression.
Automotive writers are some of the best in the world.
40 years ago I read a description of understeer vs.
oversteer, or rather the impression each gives.
The writer said that two people go for a "brisk" ride
in a car. If the passenger is scared, the car oversteers,
if the driver is scared, the car understeers.

Now, back to skiing. Again, if I remember, your
description of a "slipped" turn is where the tips or
rather the front half of the skis skid and the the
turn radius INCREASES. In other words, it's an
"anti-turn" meant to bring you back into the fall
line or perhaps do some other correction you might
feel is necessary, like a better line on a bump
or some such.

Once we can speak the same language I think it will
be easier to discuss the merits of various turns AND
combinations of turns. A good place to start, yes?
That will keep us from yelling at each other regarding
the meaning of words.

(snip the rest)

VtSkier

VtSkier wrote:

taichiskiing wrote:
(snip)


Once we can speak the same language I think it will
be easier to discuss the merits of various turns AND
combinations of turns. A good place to start, yes?

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Donec gravida,
sapien nec pretium pretium, sem nibh egestas tortor, vitae dapibus est
felis non justo. Fusce enim velit, lobortis sit amet, sodales quis,
viverra vitae, ante. Suspendisse potenti. Sed porttitor turpis at erat.
Proin rutrum risus ac enim. Sed a nunc. Vivamus porta fringilla enim.
Integer id tortor ut massa pulvinar ullamcorper. Pellentesque ipsum
lorem, venenatis non, fermentum sit amet, congue at, nunc. Mauris id
augue ut risus mollis tincidunt. Nunc vel erat. In hac habitasse platea
dictumst. Suspendisse et dolor at sem ultricies congue. Curabitur
placerat consectetuer libero. Curabitur tincidunt, justo et placerat
pellentesque, magna orci placerat ipsum, quis malesuada sem urna
ultrices tortor. Aliquam ut massa. Aenean vitae lorem. Sed felis velit,
facilisis nec, facilisis ac, egestas eu, urna.

Curabitur volutpat. Suspendisse pretium feugiat pede. Praesent velit
purus, vestibulum ac, vulputate at, tempus vitae, nisl. Suspendisse
ultrices leo ultrices leo. Aliquam erat volutpat. Nam aliquam lorem ut
metus. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Nullam
felis purus, dictum nec, placerat in, semper commodo, sem. Integer ante
lacus, vestibulum sit amet, lacinia accumsan, lobortis nec, mauris.
Aliquam eget massa a lectus sagittis varius. Vestibulum ut quam in elit
facilisis posuere. Duis molestie adipiscing nulla. Nulla a mi id sem
sodales consectetuer.

Suspendisse gravida ligula eu neque. Aenean eros nulla, fringilla at,
interdum quis, cursus eu, felis. Nulla eget enim sit amet mi lacinia
sagittis. Nunc congue imperdiet massa. Nulla nonummy nibh vitae leo.
Etiam massa lectus, elementum ac, aliquet nec, consequat nec, ligula.
Donec interdum, nisl a nonummy elementum, odio nisi pharetra leo, non
interdum ligula felis nec quam. Praesent eu ante ac orci volutpat
dapibus. Nunc lectus neque, nonummy sed, scelerisque ac, pellentesque
eget, eros. Nulla a sem. Nunc sem lorem, sodales eget, sodales in,
euismod et, nulla.

//Walt

Walt wrote:
VtSkier wrote:

taichiskiing wrote:
(snip)


Once we can speak the same language I think it will
be easier to discuss the merits of various turns AND
combinations of turns. A good place to start, yes?

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Donec gravida,
sapien nec pretium pretium, sem nibh egestas tortor, vitae dapibus est
felis non justo. Fusce enim velit, lobortis sit amet, sodales quis,
viverra vitae, ante. Suspendisse potenti. Sed porttitor turpis at erat.
Proin rutrum risus ac enim. Sed a nunc. Vivamus porta fringilla enim.
Integer id tortor ut massa pulvinar ullamcorper. Pellentesque ipsum
lorem, venenatis non, fermentum sit amet, congue at, nunc. Mauris id
augue ut risus mollis tincidunt. Nunc vel erat. In hac habitasse platea
dictumst. Suspendisse et dolor at sem ultricies congue. Curabitur
placerat consectetuer libero. Curabitur tincidunt, justo et placerat
pellentesque, magna orci placerat ipsum, quis malesuada sem urna
ultrices tortor. Aliquam ut massa. Aenean vitae lorem. Sed felis velit,
facilisis nec, facilisis ac, egestas eu, urna.

Curabitur volutpat. Suspendisse pretium feugiat pede. Praesent velit
purus, vestibulum ac, vulputate at, tempus vitae, nisl. Suspendisse
ultrices leo ultrices leo. Aliquam erat volutpat. Nam aliquam lorem ut
metus. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Nullam
felis purus, dictum nec, placerat in, semper commodo, sem. Integer ante
lacus, vestibulum sit amet, lacinia accumsan, lobortis nec, mauris.
Aliquam eget massa a lectus sagittis varius. Vestibulum ut quam in elit
facilisis posuere. Duis molestie adipiscing nulla. Nulla a mi id sem
sodales consectetuer.

Suspendisse gravida ligula eu neque. Aenean eros nulla, fringilla at,
interdum quis, cursus eu, felis. Nulla eget enim sit amet mi lacinia
sagittis. Nunc congue imperdiet massa. Nulla nonummy nibh vitae leo.
Etiam massa lectus, elementum ac, aliquet nec, consequat nec, ligula.
Donec interdum, nisl a nonummy elementum, odio nisi pharetra leo, non
interdum ligula felis nec quam. Praesent eu ante ac orci volutpat
dapibus. Nunc lectus neque, nonummy sed, scelerisque ac, pellentesque
eget, eros. Nulla a sem. Nunc sem lorem, sodales eget, sodales in,
euismod et, nulla.

Walt, you are clearly a wiseass and I'd love to meet you someday.