START kick scotch tape???

(Rob Bradlee) wrote in message news:

Perhaps other wax companies have tried the tape concept and not been
able to make it work. Look at liquid waxes. Cerax sounded great, but
it turned out to have too strong a solvent in it and clogged the base
necessitating stone-grinding after a few applications. It's very
tricky to make a good liquid wax. (I think Toko has succeeded with
Helx, but that's another story).

Rob Bradlee
Toko Tech Team


Toko has a new liquid wax? That's interesting. I remember when Cerax
first came out and was making some noise all I heard from the Toko
folks was how a liquid wax could never work. Now Toko makes a liquid
wax and I'm sure it's the greatest thing ever !?!

Ron Bott

There's a full page add about HelX in the Worldloppet Ski Race Yearbook for
2004. It says it's fluorine-based with "...glide-particles" (!) arranged on
a spiral helix structure, then goes on to extol the virtues.

Spray it on over Dibloc, let it dry for 3 minutes, polish with the special
pad, and go like stink. At least that's what the ad says.



Tim

on 12/3/03 09:53, Ron Bott wrote:

(Rob Bradlee) wrote in message news:

Perhaps other wax companies have tried the tape concept and not been
able to make it work. Look at liquid waxes. Cerax sounded great, but
it turned out to have too strong a solvent in it and clogged the base
necessitating stone-grinding after a few applications. It's very
tricky to make a good liquid wax. (I think Toko has succeeded with
Helx, but that's another story).

Rob Bradlee
Toko Tech Team


Toko has a new liquid wax? That's interesting. I remember when Cerax
first came out and was making some noise all I heard from the Toko
folks was how a liquid wax could never work. Now Toko makes a liquid
wax and I'm sure it's the greatest thing ever !?!

Ron Bott

--- Tim Dudley wrote:
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not
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this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

There's a full page add about HelX in the Worldloppet Ski Race
Yearbook for
2004. It says it's fluorine-based with "...glide-particles" (!)
arranged on
a spiral helix structure, then goes on to extol the virtues.

Spray it on over Dibloc, let it dry for 3 minutes, polish with the
special
pad, and go like stink. At least that's what the ad says.

Three minutes is probably too short. Make sure it TOTALLY dries. If
you polish it wet you won't get the durability. For those in a hurry,
rotocorking is feasible, but takes a practiced hand. (The World Cup
technician does it easily, but I found it hard to keep the cork flat on
the ski).

Definitely go like stink!

Rob Bradlee
Toko Tech Team

Just as my brain is adjusting to the walletbusting fluoros along comes
HELX and a whole new level of expense. RATS! Gotta buy yer speed these
days. I hate it. It sure is fun to go fast, tho!!! : )

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of outdoor/indoor do-it-yourself culture...
...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies...
...rare books on ski, bike, boat culture, plus a Gulf Coast thriller
about smalltown smuggling ... more radical novels coming up!
...original downloadable music ... and articles galore!
plus national "Off the Beaten Path" travel forums! HOLY SMOKES!

Tomas Bystrom wrote in message ...
In article , Jay Tegeder wrote:
Wassberg, aka "Slacken" as oppossed to "Lacka" Lars Halland...
^^^^^^^
To pick nits, it's "säcken".

/Tomas


Yeah, yeah, yeah... You're right... My bad! "Slacken" was Nils
Karlsson, aka "Mora Nisse". He got the name after winning the gold in
the 1948 Olympic 50K. No, wait a minute, "Slacken" might be Wenner's
nickname... He'll be appearing later this season on the Cresta Run...

Jay Tegeder
"I faders spar for framtids segrar"

I believe you can do a google search and find me raving about it last
winter when I used it to get a silver at Natl Masters and for a brief
time to shoot ahead of Audun Endestad. Not trying to keep any secrets.
Perhaps I didn't crow loudly last year since supplies were limited.
But plenty in stock now.

(I've also been bad about announcing new products and I still haven't
written up secrets from West Yellowstone meetings. I apologize. Too
much to do. Next week for sure...)

Rob

Hi Rob
Since this is in a 2004 yearbook and the WC techies use it,
how come its taken a thread on Start tape for you to tell us
about it!
Has it been 'a product under secret testing'.
Mike






=====
Rob Bradlee
Java, C++, Perl, XML, OOAD, Linux, and Unix Training

Rob
Exactly who has determined this problem with Cerax liquid? Who is your
source? The marketing director of Toko USA doesn't count as an independent
source. I want to know he or she is at least a technician at the National
Team level or better yet one of the waxers for Axel Teichmann, Rene
Sommerfeld and the rest of their German Team buds. I don't want to stick my
neck out passing info up to our buyers at corporate if this is only
anecdotal from a bunch of Masters circuit weekenders.. When you say the
skis need re-grinding, do you mean taking base material off with the belt
sander or is it simply repatterning with the stone grinder?
"Rob Bradlee" wrote in message
o.com...

--- shreddir wrote:
Uh-oh?! I just purchased some bottles of Cerax at our store
because they
got marked down (last years stock). Never heard about this clogging
problem. I was hoping that this was the secret weapon all those

their website have now dumped the stuff? Should I go back to the
customer
service counter and get a refund?

I sure would.
Rob

--- shreddir wrote:
Rob
Exactly who has determined this problem with Cerax liquid? Who is
your
source? The marketing director of Toko USA doesn't count as an
independent
source. I want to know he or she is at least a technician at the
National
Team level or better yet one of the waxers for Axel Teichmann, Rene
Sommerfeld and the rest of their German Team buds. I don't want to
stick my
neck out passing info up to our buyers at corporate if this is only
anecdotal from a bunch of Masters circuit weekenders.. When you say
the
skis need re-grinding, do you mean taking base material off with the
belt
sander or is it simply repatterning with the stone grinder?

My source is the Toko World Cup technician who certainly gives wax
recommendations to the waxers for Axel, Rene, etc. As I understand it
(and my understanding is quite limited), the solvents used in Cerax
were too harsh and both dried out the base and clogged up the amorphous
parts of the plastic that normally absorb wax. Also, as I understand
it, a stone grinding always takes off base material removing the very
thin layer that has absorbed wax (or in this case been clogged up). I
have no scientific articles or studies nor personal experience with
Cerax. So I can't really say that it works or doesn't work for sure.
All I'm doing in repeating what I've been told. And I'm observing that
after an initial flurry of interest in Cerax that it no longer seems to
be used by anyone at the elite level. Please don't base your buying
decisions on my hearsay evidence, but I'd also experiment with it
before spending much $ on it.

I can tell you that Toko does 1000s of test each year trying out 100s
of new mixtures. Things that work are used on the World Cup. If they
are successful on the world cup then they are released to the public as
product. But nothing is sold that has not had EXTENSIVE scientific and
practical testing.

Rob Bradlee
Toko Tech Team

I don't understand the big deal here. Swix Cera F is well known to
seal ski bases when applied by iron and it's been around for years.
A ski that's had Cera F ironed in has to be pealed or ground afterward
in order to get its pores fully cleaned if you want to take it back
to a hydrocarbon wax. Some skiers solve this by just dedicating one
pair of skis to Cera F. Anyway I haven't heard of any shops that have
stopped selling Cera F because of this.

-Mitch


On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Rob Bradlee wrote:


--- shreddir wrote:
Rob
Exactly who has determined this problem with Cerax liquid? Who is
your
source? The marketing director of Toko USA doesn't count as an
independent
source. I want to know he or she is at least a technician at the
National
Team level or better yet one of the waxers for Axel Teichmann, Rene
Sommerfeld and the rest of their German Team buds. I don't want to
stick my
neck out passing info up to our buyers at corporate if this is only
anecdotal from a bunch of Masters circuit weekenders.. When you say
the
skis need re-grinding, do you mean taking base material off with the
belt
sander or is it simply repatterning with the stone grinder?

My source is the Toko World Cup technician who certainly gives wax
recommendations to the waxers for Axel, Rene, etc. As I understand it
(and my understanding is quite limited), the solvents used in Cerax
were too harsh and both dried out the base and clogged up the amorphous
parts of the plastic that normally absorb wax. Also, as I understand
it, a stone grinding always takes off base material removing the very
thin layer that has absorbed wax (or in this case been clogged up). I
have no scientific articles or studies nor personal experience with
Cerax. So I can't really say that it works or doesn't work for sure.
All I'm doing in repeating what I've been told. And I'm observing that
after an initial flurry of interest in Cerax that it no longer seems to
be used by anyone at the elite level. Please don't base your buying
decisions on my hearsay evidence, but I'd also experiment with it
before spending much $ on it.

I can tell you that Toko does 1000s of test each year trying out 100s
of new mixtures. Things that work are used on the World Cup. If they
are successful on the world cup then they are released to the public as
product. But nothing is sold that has not had EXTENSIVE scientific and
practical testing.

Rob Bradlee
Toko Tech Team

--- Mitch Collinsworth wrote:


I don't understand the big deal here. Swix Cera F is well known to
seal ski bases when applied by iron and it's been around for years.
A ski that's had Cera F ironed in has to be pealed or ground
afterward
in order to get its pores fully cleaned if you want to take it back
to a hydrocarbon wax. Some skiers solve this by just dedicating one
pair of skis to Cera F. Anyway I haven't heard of any shops that
have
stopped selling Cera F because of this.

I specifically aske the World Cup tech about this issue. It was his
opinion that fluorocarbons do not seal the base permanently. Clean
waxing with paraffin will remove the fluorocarbon and permit re-waxing
with paraffins and fluorinated paraffins. So, that's my current
understanding of this issue. I'll ask Zach about it this weekend.

Rob Bradlee
Toko Tech Team