fluor kick waxes?

About a decade ago Swix and Toko and probably some others came out
with fluoro kick waxes VF for Swix and Dibloc for Toko. These no
longer exist and have been replaced I guess by VR and Carbon.
At the time the claim was the fluors would drag less during glide.
I remember hearing talk about layering them over or under non-fluor
waxes. I never spent enough time experienting with them to gain a
decent understanding of their characteristics.

So what happened? Were they too slippery to kick well? Do VR and
Carbon have better grip and at least as good glide? Can one achieve
similar results to the VR and Carbon waxes by layering the fluor and
pre-fluor waxes? [Does anyone besides me have a waxbox full of this
stuff and want to use some of it up before investing in yet another
line of waxes?] :-)

-Mitch

I'm staring at a blue cylinder of Swix VR40 grip wax which I bought last
year, and it says "fluorinated racing wax".

Mitch Collinsworth wrote
About a decade ago Swix and Toko and probably some others came out
with fluoro kick waxes . . . These no longer exist

I haven't kept up with the latest. Did Swix take the "fluorinated"
ingredients out for this year's current formula for VR? (or does "fluor"
mean different from "fluorinated"?)

Were they too slippery to kick well?

I was on last year's "flourinated" VR40 just a few days ago for striding on
some backcountry trails, and it gripped just fine whenever I committed my
full body weight to the ski, and wherever the snow wasn't warmed up to a
temperature outside the recommended range for VR40.

Now that I've gotten out of Classic racing, I don't know if I'd buy such
expensive wax again, but Sharon seems pretty happy using it up for her many
days of Classic skiing.

Ken
__________________________________
Mitch Collinsworth wrote
About a decade ago Swix and Toko and probably some others came out
with fluoro kick waxes VF for Swix and Dibloc for Toko. These no
longer exist and have been replaced I guess by VR and Carbon.
At the time the claim was the fluors would drag less during glide.
I remember hearing talk about layering them over or under non-fluor
waxes. I never spent enough time experienting with them to gain a
decent understanding of their characteristics.

So what happened? Were they too slippery to kick well? Do VR and
Carbon have better grip and at least as good glide? Can one achieve
similar results to the VR and Carbon waxes by layering the fluor and
pre-fluor waxes? [Does anyone besides me have a waxbox full of this
stuff and want to use some of it up before investing in yet another
line of waxes?] :-)
____________________________________

Seems that the VF Swix waxes developed a bad reputation, but I never had too
much trouble with them. People said that they wore off easily. They'd last
me 50 kms on numerous skis.
Mostly these days if I use them I apply them as top coats over cheap hydro
waxes.
Toko Carbon waxes, which I am mighty fond of, are said to glide as well as
the fluoros and last longer. If you do a search of this newsgroup, I think
you'll find a discussion of "carbon" vs. flouro as an anti-ice agent.
Rode, Start, and I'm sure others still make fluoro kick waxes, so I suppose
there's nothing about that technology that is outdated in any sense except
marketing.

I like to use up what I have before I buy the newest, and if I see stuff
that is "old" on sale I buy it before I buy the newest usually. Many fine
skiers won many races on the "old stuff". Worked then (not so long ago),
works now.

Gary Jacobson
Rosendale, NY where I toyed with using Hakka blue skare as a base klister
today.

I often hear about the popularity of Rode kick waxes among the elite,
and I often get the sense it's not just the fluoros.

Gene

Gary Jacobson wrote:

Seems that the VF Swix waxes developed a bad reputation, but I never had too
much trouble with them. People said that they wore off easily. They'd last
me 50 kms on numerous skis.
Mostly these days if I use them I apply them as top coats over cheap hydro
waxes.
Toko Carbon waxes, which I am mighty fond of, are said to glide as well as
the fluoros and last longer. If you do a search of this newsgroup, I think
you'll find a discussion of "carbon" vs. flouro as an anti-ice agent.
Rode, Start, and I'm sure others still make fluoro kick waxes, so I suppose
there's nothing about that technology that is outdated in any sense except
marketing.

I like to use up what I have before I buy the newest, and if I see stuff
that is "old" on sale I buy it before I buy the newest usually. Many fine
skiers won many races on the "old stuff". Worked then (not so long ago),
works now.

Gary Jacobson
Rosendale, NY where I toyed with using Hakka blue skare as a base klister
today.

The old Swix VF waxes had a bad reputation while the new VR waxes are
said to work well. (I've only used the new waxes a few times when
loaned out by other skiers.) The VF waxes certainly didn't work in
their recommended temp range, so they've sat in my wax box unused for
years. As for Toko, it seems the fluoro Toko kick waxes got popular
when the Swix fluoro kick waxes wouldn't work. Drew (the old local Swix
rep) used to tell everybody to jump a range on the Swix waxes. So use
the 30 at 0F, the 40 at 10 F, etc.

I've heard one friend say the old fluoro Toko waxes were junk, but it
seems most others I know had good luck with the recommended temps,
except for the old green. That one had too much kick at cold temps (and
dragged pretty bad). Part of the appeal of the Toko waxes was the
simplicity, red, blue, green, and if it's too wet for red, skate. They
also had old snow and new snow, but many blew off the new snow waxes.
Then they came out with one line of waxes for new and old snow and
added Turquoise, then Mint, then Yellow and Purple, and gee, now
there's as many waxes as Swix. (Of course Rode has a million
variations.)

I should update my kick wax box one of these years since I still have
the old Swix and Toko fluoro waxes, along with a few Rodes, some Rex
and some regular old Swix like Green special, Green, Green extra, Blue
Special, etc. Since we've been on a streak of 12" annual snowfalls, the
priority doesn't seem that high....maybe next year.

Jay Wenner

After they switched to carbons, I heard from a couple of Toko reps that
their Dibloc fluoros weren't very good, except for one of the blues.
That was my experience, as well as with the Swix's.

Gene

"Bjorn A. Payne Diaz" wrote:

The old Swix VF waxes had a bad reputation while the new VR waxes are
said to work well. (I've only used the new waxes a few times when
loaned out by other skiers.) The VF waxes certainly didn't work in
their recommended temp range, so they've sat in my wax box unused for
years. As for Toko, it seems the fluoro Toko kick waxes got popular
when the Swix fluoro kick waxes wouldn't work. Drew (the old local Swix
rep) used to tell everybody to jump a range on the Swix waxes. So use
the 30 at 0F, the 40 at 10 F, etc.

I've heard one friend say the old fluoro Toko waxes were junk, but it
seems most others I know had good luck with the recommended temps,
except for the old green. That one had too much kick at cold temps (and
dragged pretty bad). Part of the appeal of the Toko waxes was the
simplicity, red, blue, green, and if it's too wet for red, skate. They
also had old snow and new snow, but many blew off the new snow waxes.
Then they came out with one line of waxes for new and old snow and
added Turquoise, then Mint, then Yellow and Purple, and gee, now
there's as many waxes as Swix. (Of course Rode has a million
variations.)

I should update my kick wax box one of these years since I still have
the old Swix and Toko fluoro waxes, along with a few Rodes, some Rex
and some regular old Swix like Green special, Green, Green extra, Blue
Special, etc. Since we've been on a streak of 12" annual snowfalls, the
priority doesn't seem that high....maybe next year.

Jay Wenner

I've been using the VR waxes for about a year now, and am pretty
pleased. They seem to wear as well or better than the straight 'V'
waxes, very forgiving on temp range, especially on the manmade stuff
we've been blessed with here in the 'cities. Are they significantly
better? Don't know. I'm of the 'one line' school, and while these cost
a little more, it's peanuts compared to what I spend on glide waxing.
I especially like the VR70 wax. Wet, new or relatively new snow and it
is a keeper.

Marsh Jones

Bjorn A. Payne Diaz wrote:

The old Swix VF waxes had a bad reputation while the new VR waxes are
said to work well. (I've only used the new waxes a few times when
loaned out by other skiers.) The VF waxes certainly didn't work in
their recommended temp range, so they've sat in my wax box unused for
years. As for Toko, it seems the fluoro Toko kick waxes got popular
when the Swix fluoro kick waxes wouldn't work. Drew (the old local Swix
rep) used to tell everybody to jump a range on the Swix waxes. So use
the 30 at 0F, the 40 at 10 F, etc.

I've heard one friend say the old fluoro Toko waxes were junk, but it
seems most others I know had good luck with the recommended temps,
except for the old green. That one had too much kick at cold temps (and
dragged pretty bad). Part of the appeal of the Toko waxes was the
simplicity, red, blue, green, and if it's too wet for red, skate. They
also had old snow and new snow, but many blew off the new snow waxes.
Then they came out with one line of waxes for new and old snow and
added Turquoise, then Mint, then Yellow and Purple, and gee, now
there's as many waxes as Swix. (Of course Rode has a million
variations.)

I should update my kick wax box one of these years since I still have
the old Swix and Toko fluoro waxes, along with a few Rodes, some Rex
and some regular old Swix like Green special, Green, Green extra, Blue
Special, etc. Since we've been on a streak of 12" annual snowfalls, the
priority doesn't seem that high....maybe next year.

Jay Wenner

I have some of the Swix XF range of waxes, also discontinued. Work fine for
me, but I'm no expert. Just did a quick 25kms ski around Gatineau Parc this
morning and worked well in the -8C to -6 C range.

Tony

"Mitch Collinsworth" wrote in message
ornell.edu...

About a decade ago Swix and Toko and probably some others came out
with fluoro kick waxes VF for Swix and Dibloc for Toko. These no
longer exist and have been replaced I guess by VR and Carbon.
At the time the claim was the fluors would drag less during glide.
I remember hearing talk about layering them over or under non-fluor
waxes. I never spent enough time experienting with them to gain a
decent understanding of their characteristics.

So what happened? Were they too slippery to kick well? Do VR and
Carbon have better grip and at least as good glide? Can one achieve
similar results to the VR and Carbon waxes by layering the fluor and
pre-fluor waxes? [Does anyone besides me have a waxbox full of this
stuff and want to use some of it up before investing in yet another
line of waxes?] :-)

-Mitch