If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Wedge vs. Stem; The Difference.
OK, Britt wants to know the difference, (he claims, maybe he
just wants more argument for argument's sake) and it actually comes up all the time, you try to explain magic turns and sooner or later somebody pipes up and says "yeahhh that's just the old stem christy". But it's not. People have for all modern skiing time learned to ski in a wedge for the most part. The question then arose and still does, how do you get the student to move from wedge turns into making parallel turns, often called "matching the skis"? Today, use magic turns. To make a magic turn, traverse, make a wedge to set the edges of both skis, transfer weight to the outside ski and pick up the tail of the inside ski (while leaving the tip of the inside ski on the snow) and put it back next to the outside ski. Always hold hands well in front of you, shoulders square to your direction of travel. Or, at first, keep the shoulders square to the skis. Skiing is done with the legs, not the shoulders. To do the old stem that comes out of the twenties or thirties, traverse, put *all* the weight on the inside ski, (unnatural and difficult at best), while leaving that inside ski in the traverse path you're already on, extend the fully unweighted outside ski to make a "v" shape with both skis, tips close, tails spread apart. *THEN*, transfer all the weight from the inside ski (if you haven't fallen over yet) to the *outside ski*, *THENNN* pick up the inside ski and put it next to the outside ski, and *TTTHHHENNNN* even out the weight onto both skis a bit and turn. Cmon. You *really* can't see the difference? See, there's a lot of unnatural steps and extra motion to the stem that doesn't happen if you initiate a turn with a *wedge*. Right? Serious replies only please. No subject changing, small talk or giggle posts. Pretty please? |
Ads |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
"foot2foot" wrote People have for all modern skiing time learned to ski in a wedge for the most part. The question then arose and still does, how do you get the student to move from wedge turns into making parallel turns, often called "matching the skis"? Serious replies only please. No subject changing, small talk or giggle posts. I'm really serious: why is it such a big deal? I've witnessed no less than five people of very different background start skiing parallel on their first or second day with very little external influence. They all had grave problems with more difficult terrain though, and for that magic turns (I really hate your nomenclature) probably won't do anything. I could understand something like this when learning to snowboard (in fact, that would be really great and save a lot of broken tailbones), but for skis it should only be good for reeeeally athletically challanged chikens. |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
foot2foot wrote:
OK, Britt wants to know the difference, (he claims, maybe he just wants more argument for argument's sake) and it actually comes up all the time, you try to explain magic turns and sooner or later somebody pipes up and says "yeahhh that's just the old stem christy". But it's not. People have for all modern skiing time learned to ski in a wedge for the most part. The question then arose and still does, how do you get the student to move from wedge turns into making parallel turns, often called "matching the skis"? Today, use magic turns. To make a magic turn, traverse, make a wedge to set the edges of both skis, transfer weight to the outside ski and pick up the tail of the inside ski (while leaving the tip of the inside ski on the snow) and put it back next to the outside ski. Always hold hands well in front of you, shoulders square to your direction of travel. Or, at first, keep the shoulders square to the skis. Skiing is done with the legs, not the shoulders. To do the old stem that comes out of the twenties or thirties, traverse, put *all* the weight on the inside ski, (unnatural and difficult at best), while leaving that inside ski in the traverse path you're already on, extend the fully unweighted outside ski to make a "v" shape with both skis, tips close, tails spread apart. *THEN*, transfer all the weight from the inside ski (if you haven't fallen over yet) to the *outside ski*, *THENNN* pick up the inside ski and put it next to the outside ski, and *TTTHHHENNNN* even out the weight onto both skis a bit and turn. Cmon. You *really* can't see the difference? See, there's a lot of unnatural steps and extra motion to the stem that doesn't happen if you initiate a turn with a *wedge*. Right? Serious replies only please. No subject changing, small talk or giggle posts. Pretty please? I'm a relatively new skier, but I never did the wedge thing. Still not sure how it works really. I went from going straight and falling to hockey style stops, then turned that into carving. I managed to turn just well enough to get by by hopping up a little bit and just tossing the tails off to one side. Repeat on the other side. As I got a feel for the skis I'd "throw" the backs of the skis less and let them curve a little bit. Eventually I learned to just lean into the ski the right way instead of actually trying to move it. |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
foot2foot wrote:
Cmon. You *really* can't see the difference? Yes, thankyou for the explanation. |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
"Dmitry" wrote in message
I'm really serious: why is it such a big deal? Because in most cases, it has taken people *years* to move from the bunny hills to parallel skiing on the blues. That's why almost all new skiers quit after the first day. This system solves that problem. I've witnessed no less than five people of very different background start skiing parallel on their first or second day with very little external influence. They all had grave problems with more difficult terrain though, Exactly. The magic turns system is what enables a very new skier to take the steep greens and the blues within hours. It's highly edged, aggressive, carved. With the old systems, or with most people that never had any help, on the steeper terrain, it all falls apart. It's because they have part of the tools they need, but not all. There are only a few. If you have them it's easy for anybody. and for that magic turns (I really hate your nomenclature) I didn't invent it. An extremely major ski area's learning center uses this terminology. I decided to steal it. This system is gaining wider use by the day. Before I heard that, to me it was a schrittbogen system. But that only really refers to picking up the tail and leaving the tip on the snow. It's a whole system that does the job. You'll *really* hate it if I go back to calling it schrittbogen. probably won't do anything. Actually it does everything. I could understand something like this when learning to snowboard (in fact, that would be really great and save a lot of broken tailbones), but for skis it should only be good for reeeeally athletically challanged chikens. Which most new skiers are. If you have a really athletic type, they can just muscle the skis to do what they want. Most people can't do this. They need finesse. The beginner berm is what makes skiing fun and relaxed for even the most timid. It can help for snowboarding as well, but snowboarding is different. Going straight on a flat board just isn't a good idea. Especially for a beginner No? |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
"BrritSki" wrote in message
... foot2foot wrote: Cmon. You *really* can't see the difference? Yes, thank you for the explanation. Yo, no way....:?)))) Hmm, I guess I'll have to buy you and Dave M a beer apres ski. Or would that be an ale? If you want, I could dig up a 1930's explanation of how the stem turn is/was done. A lot of instructors don't really know or think about the difference. |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
"Jon C" wrote in message
I'm a relatively new skier, but I never did the wedge thing. Still not sure how it works really. I would say that, after a while, when you're fairly confident and able with your parallel skiing, you might want to learn to wedge as well. Just about anyone can show it to you, or you could get an idea about how it works by watching a class of toddlers learn to ski. Put your skis in a 'V" shape, put more weight on the outside ski. Use both big toe edges instead of the big toe edge of the outside ski, and little toe edge of the inside ski. You won't use it very often, but even the most fearless extreme skier uses his or her wedge once in a while, for example, to approach a dangerous drop and get into the position they want to start the run from. Or, to control speed in an extremely narrow but not too steep place where there's really no room to turn. But I wouldn't fool around with a wedge right away, since you're doing so well straight to parallel. It might cause you to lose progress for a while. I wouldn't even worry about picking up the tail and leaving the tip on the snow anymore. Of course, you never did. I went from going straight and falling to hockey style stops, then turned that into carving. The hockey stop is often a key to learning parallel. The whole secret to a skidded parallel turn is the same sideslip that you learn via the hockey stop. It takes most people a while to get this down. Most people can only stop at first my making a turn all the way across and up the hill to a stop. Basically, the skidded parallel turn involves getting all over the tips, and skidding the tails around the tips to tighten up the radius of your turn. It takes fairly fine edge control, which you apparently already have. I managed to turn just well enough to get by by hopping up a little bit and just tossing the tails off to one side. Repeat on the other side. This would be an up unweight. Give a little hop, change the edges, and steer the skis as you wish. Advanced stuff really. I personally still do not do it all that well. Great! As I got a feel for the skis I'd "throw" the backs of the skis less and let them curve a little bit. The good, and rare thing about this is, you're talking about the *tails* of the skis as the part of the ski that moves the most, which means your pivot point is well forward on the skis. Most want to stay in the backseat, which is ineffective and dangerous. The best thing a new skier can do is to start, and stay well forward on the skis. It's the job of the instructor to make sure this happens. Eventually I learned to just lean into the ski the right way instead of actually trying to move it. Now you're speaking of a "just crossover and edge" type of turn. A *whole* lot of advanced for a new skier. Absolutely great. Getting way forward on the ski is what makes it easy for a new skier to turn, or any skier for that matter. You're an exceptional student, and obviously a very talented skier. Go with exactly what you've been doing would be my suggestion. You've gotten way past all the stuff like initiation with a wedge and picking up the tail while leaving the tip on the snow, and done it in no time at all. There are some other simple things a more advance skier can work on, once you get hungry again, perhaps they'd be of interest to you. There is one thing I might suggest you consider and play around with as you ski. To turn right, your body must be on the right side of the skis. To turn left, your body must be on the left side of the skis. Maybe just a tiny bit, maybe a little more, depending on the speed and radius of the turn. You're looking to move the body ahead and down the hill toward the center of the next turn. The typical term is a "diagonal" move of the body across the skis and down the hill toward the center point of the next turn. There's some flexion and extension most people like to put in there, but you don't really *need* to do this at first. You can always work it in if you wish. And, one more thing, your hands must always be out in front of you where you can see them. This is more important than anything else. Keep up the incredible progress!! |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
"foot2foot" wrote in message ... OK, Britt wants to know the difference, (he claims, maybe he just wants more argument for argument's sake) and it actually comes up all the time, you try to explain magic turns and sooner or later somebody pipes up and says "yeahhh that's just the old stem christy". But it's not. People have for all modern skiing time learned to ski in a wedge for the most part. The question then arose and still does, how do you get the student to move from wedge turns into making parallel turns, often called "matching the skis"? Today, use magic turns. To make a magic turn, traverse, make a wedge to set the edges of both skis, transfer weight to the outside ski and pick up the tail of the inside ski (while leaving the tip of the inside ski on the snow) and put it back next to the outside ski. Always hold hands well in front of you, shoulders square to your direction of travel. Or, at first, keep the shoulders square to the skis. Skiing is done with the legs, not the shoulders. To do the old stem that comes out of the twenties or thirties, traverse, put *all* the weight on the inside ski, (unnatural and difficult at best), while leaving that inside ski in the traverse path you're already on, extend the fully unweighted outside ski to make a "v" shape with both skis, tips close, tails spread apart. *THEN*, transfer all the weight from the inside ski (if you haven't fallen over yet) to the *outside ski*, *THENNN* pick up the inside ski and put it next to the outside ski, and *TTTHHHENNNN* even out the weight onto both skis a bit and turn. Cmon. You *really* can't see the difference? See, there's a lot of unnatural steps and extra motion to the stem that doesn't happen if you initiate a turn with a *wedge*. Right? Serious replies only please. No subject changing, small talk or giggle posts. Pretty please? You're funny. giggle |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
foot2foot wrote:
"BrritSki" wrote in message ... foot2foot wrote: Cmon. You *really* can't see the difference? Yes, thank you for the explanation. Yo, no way....:?)))) Way. I can see what you mean by the difference. I'm not sure that anyone ever did a pure stem though or the results would have been as you say, arse over tit. I would guess that most people did some combination of the stem and the wedge naturally to avoid this, but I'm not an instructor and I learnt a long time ago in Italy so it's hard for me to remember. Hmm, I guess I'll have to buy you and Dave M a beer apres ski. Or would that be an ale? Either. If you want, I could dig up a 1930's explanation of how the stem turn is/was done. A lot of instructors don't really know or think about the difference. No. Please don't. BTW, I think you misunderstand why I and others have a go at you. It's not because I necessarily think that everything you say is wrong. It is good to see someone post about ski technique and argue their case. The problem is that you are so dogmatic and long-winded and don't understand or won't accept some widely accepted facets of physics and statistics. Have some fun skiing if there's any snow near you. My daughter is having fun in Val d'Isere this weekend and I'll be kicking off my season next weekend in Verbier. |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
foot2foot wrote:
OK, Britt wants to know the difference, (he claims, maybe he just wants more argument for argument's sake) and it actually comes up all the time, you try to explain magic turns and sooner or later somebody pipes up and says "yeahhh that's just the old stem christy". But it's not. Many ski schools are now teaching parallel turns from the very 1st day. They do so by teaching with very short skis and no ski poles. With the shorter skis and new teaching methods people are learning at a far faster pace. |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
New thread LAL, PSIA wedge. | foot2foot | Alpine Skiing | 10 | November 28th 04 10:35 PM |
Time Machine, 1930's -The Pure Stem | foot2foot | Alpine Skiing | 12 | May 28th 04 07:26 PM |
difference Solden- Ischgl | Nigel (Remove NOSPAM) | European Ski Resorts | 6 | March 17th 04 10:55 AM |
The difference swing weight makes | Jeff Potter | Nordic Skiing | 0 | November 8th 03 02:07 PM |
M/L Binding? Is there a huge difference? | John | Snowboarding | 7 | October 27th 03 06:04 PM |