Our snowboarding misadventure at Seven Springs

Do all shops rent? We passed some rental shops near Seven Springs, but the
ski/board shops in the Pittsburgh metropolitan area seem to focus on
selling, not renting. Of course, I've never asked. g

Most I've been to do. You'd have to check with any particular shop for
the details of pricing and the like. Also, there's rentals and there's
demos. Rentals are just that, an inventory of equipment, probibly all
basicly the same brand and model, that they rent out. Demos are taken
from their sales inventory, so that you can try a particular board,
boot or binding before buying. Usually demo equipment is better, but
it costs more to demo than to rent. Rental equipment should be fine
while you're learning, but I definately think you'll get better
service and more for your money from a shop than from how you
described the resort.

There's no way we're ready for the "next step" lesson, since we decisively
failed the first course!

Maybe, but saying "I've had one lesson before" might get you out of
the beginner bucket and into a smaller group. At least at the resort
we lessoned at, there was no difference in price bewtween the beginner
or next step lesson.

Never did the garland or the falling leaf.

Now we're starting to see something troubling. So the way they tried
to teach you was probibly something like: strap one foot in, glide for
a bit. Now when you glide, try changing direction by pointing where
you want to go with your front hand. Now try with both feet strapped
in. Now try going straight down the hill a little bit, then swing the
board around to stop.

That's the way most people would try to teach your friend. It sort of
works, but it really only gives you a very limited ability to get down
hills or turn the board. It's not until you learn a bit more subtle
balance and how to make the board turn just by shifting weight that
you'll really start to get it. Falling leaf, and then doing garlands
gives you a nice progression. It's how I learned, and I definately
think it's the best way to go about it. If your lesson didn't follow
that progression, that really screams to me that they weren't doing a
good job.

or
even purchase some stuff.

Actually, I ended up replacing all the stuff I bought originally. I
think when you're beginning you really don't know what kind of gear
you want, and people do vary in what style of equipment they like. So
if you buy, I'd suggest going fairly cheap. Don't get anything so
awful that think it might be a barrier to learning, but also don't go
out and buy top of the line brand new gear.

The exception is boots: if you think you'll stay with it for a bit,
buying a quality pair of boots that fits you well is huge. Boots are
definately the most important: if you have a good connection to a bad
board, you'll still ride ok. If you have a bad connection to a good
board, you'll have a very hard time.

Tips on buying boots could be a whole different thread :P.

"Joe Ramirez" wrote

Right. I didn't really know what we wanted, except that I wanted it to work.
But there really isn't much that the clerks can do for one person, because
they always have to worry about the long line of people waiting for service.

Joe,

Read your story and regretted nobody (me included) tried to really steer
you to the right place/time/equipment/company before. We should have known
better.

Now, looks like you are not quite ready to give up, so here's some advice
that you may find useful.

1. Commit to it. Freaking decide for yourself that you'll make every
effort to snowboard this season. If you're "sport shopping" you're
wasting time. Wrong attitude - poor results. You probably understand
it better than I do

2. Practical stuff: go to a really good specialty snowboard shop (ask
around), make sure the knowledgeable boot fitter will be there when
you show up (call in advance). Buy yourself snowboard boots that fit
(heel lift is a keyword here). Wear them at home as much as you can,
and take them back to the shop for additional fitment if you're not
completely comfortable. I took mine, they used a press to bend the
plastic part in the front of the boot to better suit my feet's shape -
made all the difference. The key here is finding the knowledgeable
people (Borderline Snowboards in Bellevue, WA for me) who can do the
fitting. Budget - around $170 for a pair of decent boots, give or
take.

3. Rent a snowboard/bindings at specialty shop. Ask them what brand
and model boards/bindings do they have, and somebody in this group
will sure tell you what size to get. Price - around $30. Better yet,
buy a used board/bindings from classifieds or eBay, you can find a
very good beginner setup for around $150-200. You'll be able to sell
it next season with little loss when you're ready for better equipment.

4. Strap in at home the evening before you go to the slopes, and try
to envision/teach your muscles how to keep your balance over the board.
Imagine yourself riding, go to sleep trying to "prime" your mind for
the next day's riding.

5. Read a book. It's good to know the theory. "Illustrated guide
to snowboarding" is quite good, your local library probably has one.
It also has a very good beginner "ladder" with drills, pictures, tips
and all the good and useful stuff.

6. It would be best if there's a resort near you (however small -
doesn't matter) that has night runs. Go there after work for a
couple of hours of training one-two days a week. Great way to
get away from busywork, among other things. A book and desire to
learn should be enough, but friends who ride well can help. Learn
at your own pace, set realistic targets for the day. If you get
stuck, bring a video camera and ask someone to take a short video
of your riding, then analyse it at home. Or pay for an instructor.
Or ask here.

Ok, I've checked out 7springs.com and sure enough they have night
runs 'til 10PM. GO FOR IT!

--
Dmitry

"Joe Ramirez" wrote in message
Many people have mentioned this "falling leaf" technique. Is it a standard
lesson for beginners? If so, why didn't we use it?!

If your instructor didn't even mention falling leaf or garlands, then it
looks like your lesson was even worse than I thought.
There are various snowboarding tutorials on the net, I've found some before
with video, so have a search around and read up before you next go (even if
it is for a private lesson).
When I get home I'll see if I have any in my favourites.

--
kitemap
http://ugcc.co.uk

"Joe Ramirez" wrote in message
...
We were on the beginners' slope, but the problem was that it was teeming
with beginners! There also seemed to be a lot of skiers "passing through"
on
their way to someplace else.

each way. I was thinking about the Snowshoe resort in West Virginia, which
is a four-hour drive from here. Anyone been there?

Joe Ramirez

My first trip ever was to Snowshoe last March. I'd never been on either
skis or snowboard. I didn't take a lesson, because a friend in my group had
told me her experience with lessons was very similar to yours, and I didn't
want to spend the money for something that might be a waste of time. She
told me to keep the board perpendicular to the slope, and "scrape" down it
until I felt comfortable with my balance on both edges. I spent the
majority of my first day on the hill falling on my butt and/or knees, but by
the end of the day I could "crape down the slope on both heel and toe edges,
and do the "falling leaf" on the green trails there. I didn't figure out
garland turns until the second day. By the night session (6-10pm) at Silver
Creek, I was starting to link skidded turns, and boy was that a relief to my
screaming leg muscles! I returned to Snowshoe three weeks ago for another
3-day trip. It was a weekend, and during the Christmas holiday period, so
it was very, very crowded. The beginner area where lessons are apparently
given is congested and crowded, and much like what you described at
7springs. I always walked or skated past this area to the top of the next
green trail. I encountered several people having a private lesson with a
Snowshoe instructor, and overheard what sounded like pretty decent
instructions and feedback to the rider. On the upside, the Silver Creek
area I mentioned, which is part of the Snowshoe resort but you have to take
a short shuttle bus ride, also has a lesson area. There's also a roped-off
beginner area with rolling carpet type lift and a run-out to keep you from
getting out of control. It's rather short, but if you're just working on
getting your balance it seems much better than the other area. If you go
outside the rope, the slope widens and has a very gentle grade when you are
ready for a longer slope. The key things about Silver Creek is that it's
only open at night from 6-10, it's less crowded, and has a gentler beginner
slope. The only thing I dislike about Snowshoe: it's expensive, from the
lift ticket to the food. I would definitely recommend giving Snowshoe a
try, especially if you can plan to go over to the Silver Creek area, but I
would suggest a weekday if at all possible.

Lynn G.

Joe, having been through the same experience, I feel for you.
I'm 43 now and took up boarding about 2 years back. Previously, I've skiied
for about 6 years.

During the beginning, I took a lesson for starters but it was just basic -
same thing, slide, glide, try to turn and hope you don't land on your ass
and break any bones. After the first lesson on rental gear, I went out and
bought a inexpensive board and boot package. I didn't bother with any
further lessons out of sheer stubborness, because they weren't teaching me
anything that I couldn't pick up by observing others - hence the longer
learning curve. Yes, after quite a few times of face and ass plants, I had
considered just pitching all the gear and to go back to skiing. Took me
atleast 6 times out before everything just magically clicked one day. PS,
None of the skiing skills are transferable to snowboarding.

Last year, I don't believe I even touched my skii gear. I persevered and am
having a ball snowboarding.

This year, my kids wanted to try snowboarding. They've been skiing for a
couple of years. My 13 year old son gave up the first day and went back to
skiing - couldn't take the falling down aspect. As any teenager, he couldn't
understand why this skill wouldn't come to him so easily. However, my 11
year old daughter stuck with it, just to spite her older brother. Ofcourse,
I did give them tips of what NOT to do as I had done to make things easier.
By the end of the day she was doing the falling leaf and had good edge
control. By the second day, she was linking her turns with confidence. We
even managed to try some of the bigger blue and green runs without problems.
She did try a few quieter blacks with me, just told her to edge/scrape/leaf
down the steeper sections if she felt overwhelmed.

Skiing and snowboarding are great family activities, just hang in there a
little bit longer. As other's have suggested, find a smaller or quieter
resort. I think you'll pick up a lot more from some instructional books and
DVDs than the so called "instructors" at the resorts - lot of them are just
kids who board but don't have the skills to actually teach. Take a day off
with your son during the week (aslong as you or him doesn't have anything
pressing at work or school) and give it another go.

Cheers.

"Joe Ramirez" wrote in message
...
A couple of weeks ago, I started a thread here, "Snowboarding or skiing?",
that generated much discussion and many helpful contributions from group
members. To recap, I'm 42, my son is 14, and neither of us had ever
snowboarded before. We decided to give the sport a shot at the Seven
Springs
resort near us in Pennsylvania. I thought the group might be interested in
learning how our first day went. Those with a low tolerance for tedium may
wish to stop reading now.

What went right:
*After reading about how to dress for the slopes, we bought long
underwear,
fleece, goggles, snowboarding gloves, etc. We were quite warm today.
*Our rental boots & boards used step-in bindings, which turned out to be
invaluable -- not just for getting into the bindings, but also for getting
out of them. I often found that the only way to get from one place to
another on the hill was to pick up the board and walk.
*The snow-covered trees in the mountains southeast of Pittsburgh were very
pretty.

What went wrong: Just about everything else.

Actually, our first day of snowboarding was supposed to have been last
Sunday, but my son got sick and we had to postpone the trip for a week.
Too
bad, because last week was consistently cold, and I think the snow was in
better shape (though mostly machine-made). This week was very cold up
until
yesterday, when the temperature suddenly rose, and it rained for a while.
Then it turned colder again. The result was a wetter, icier environment.

The day got off to a comic start this morning as I was viewing the Seven
Springs snow report on my notebook computer. I walked across the room to
show it to my wife, then returned to my seat, still staring at the screen.
Unfortunately, the screen was not transparent, so I did not see the
footrest
sticking out from the couch, which I tripped over magnificently. I banged
and scraped my foot, shin and knee, though the computer happily survived.
This turned out to be my worst fall of the day, though I'm not sure I can
legitimately claim it as snowboard-related.

At the beginning of the drive to Seven Springs, we were descending a steep
hill in our area that turned out to be ice-covered and unsalted. The car
spun around several times before ending up in a grassy field on the side
of
the road. Luckily, we didn't hit anything, so we were able to pull back
onto
the road, gingerly crawl down the rest of the hill, and resume the trip.
But
the near-accident turned out to be a bad omen.

Seven Springs has a beginner package for $65 that includes boots and board
rental, a 90-minute group lesson, and a limited access lift ticket. (The
package is cheaper for skiers, because the ski rental costs less. Why is
that?) We purchased two of these packages for a total of $130. We never
even
got near a lift today, so I guess we lost money on that part of the deal.

I had thought that equipment selection and use would be part of the
lesson,
but it wasn't. A guy just handed us boots after learning our shoe sizes.
There was no effort to ensure a truly good fit, or to explain how all the
various fasteners worked. I had to keep going back to the rental desk to
ask
questions. After we got one of my son's boots on and fastened, I noticed
that the other one was missing a strap, so we had to start again with a
new
pair. My own boots were size 11. I suppose that they fit me adequately
after
a lot of tugging on the laces, but I think that the model was probably too
wide to start with. My heels felt a bit loose, and there was a certain
Frankenstein's monster quality to my stomping.

After all the boots were tied, I happened to look down at my hand and
notice
that the skin was shredded on two fingers from all the lace pulling. The
rental clerk responded vacantly when I asked where first aid was, so I
just
wandered around until I thought of trying the childcare area. Sure enough,
the supervisor there had a whole box of first aid supplies, so I was able
to
find a couple of bandages for my fingers.

My son and I were given the same model of snowboard (Rossignol), though
his
was a little longer than mine. That struck me as odd, since we are within
.25" to .5" in height (he is tall for a 14-year-old -- about six feet),
but
I outweigh him by 40-50 pounds. When we finally got out on the slope, I
discovered that the binding for my front (left) foot was almost
perpendicular to the major axis of the board, which turned out to be
inconvenient for me. There was so much angle to the foot placement that it
hurt to twist my left knee when I had to scoot with the left foot on the
board and the right foot pushing. Also, I keep my balance much better when
I
can turn my left foot more toward to the direction in which I'm heading.
It
felt awkward to have it pointing to the side. Our instructor said it was
possible to rotate the binding on the board, but I tried it on the hill
and
it didn't budge.

The group lesson itself turned out to be of little use. There were about
five groups of eight for the 2:00 p.m. snowboarding beginners' lesson, and
probably as many for the skiing lesson, so if you pictured the slope as
very
crowded, you'd be right. I was the only adult in our group of eight. The
instructor went through a series of lessons in a set order, and from my
perspective it didn't seem to make much difference whether the students
mastered a step or not before the next came along. Stand on the board |
Push
the board | Slide with both feet on the board, but only one in the
bindings
| Toeside turn | Heelside turn | Try both feet in the bindings | Now try
linking turns. I wasn't close to being able to turn effectively -- in
fact,
I really couldn't get the board on edge at all -- when we were supposed to
try linking turns. I'd say that of the eight people in the group, perhaps
two (both little kids -- this seems to be a relatively bad sport for
taller
folks to learn) could do a half-decent single turn. Everyone else would
slide down the hill a bit, make some kind of effort, perhaps turn a
little,
then flop over in a heap. This was about one hour into the lesson. At this
point my son, who was very far from enjoying himself, and I just left.

An even bigger problem, from my perspective, was that the slope was so
crowded. Boarders and skiers were everywhere, moving in every direction,
or
sometimes just sitting or lying on the snow. It's fine for a skilled
instructor to maneuver among the crowds, but I don't think it's right to
ask
someone like me to learn in such conditions. Child beginners tend to be
heedless of where they'll end up when they start moving. However, as an
adult, I have the responsibility to think about where I'm heading. Also,
though I'm not a huge person, I'm an adult male and can do some damage to
anyone I collide with. I know that once my board starts moving, I can't
stop
and I can't turn. When the slope is crawling with people, where am I
supposed to go? I can't just say, "Anyone in my path be damned!" As a
result, most of my trips were very short. Once I picked up a little speed,
I
seemed to have no choice but to take a dive in order to stop before I
became
a missile.

By the way, is it possible for a snowboard to be too fast, at least for a
beginner? A little more friction would have been welcome. I didn't like
the
foot-on-a-banana-peel sensation of zipping away with no control. Since the
sport has no "crutch" -- the hand on the wall for the novice skater,
training wheels or a parent's grip for a new bicyclist, poles for the
beginning skier -- there doesn't seem to be a way to master the balancing
gradually.

On the whole, the experience was like learning to ride a bicycle by going
downhill with no brakes, and with dozens of pedestrians and other riders
crossing in front of you. When we were seated in the shuttle bus headed
back
to the parking lot, my son remarked, "Well, that's one thing I never want
to
do again. That was horrible."

Anyway, if we do this again -- and I'm not sure we will, given my son's
perspective and my disinclination to go alone -- we'll have to try private
lessons and figure out when there'll be some real open space available for
learning. I'm not sure what to do about equipment. Today's experience
confirms my general view that it's impossible to make progress in anything
with one-size-fits-all rental stuff (I didn't start improving as a skater
until I got my own, well-fitting skates), but it's very expensive and
probably imprudent to buy equipment we may seldom use. I already feel as
though today's $130 was flushed away with little to show for it.

Sorry for the extreme length of this report. If you're still awake, thanks
for reading.

Joe Ramirez

yeah.. and we're both in our twenties, so I felt mildly stupid (it was a
busy day), but low and behold, after a few times I got the knack, and
all was good.. I remember when I learned skiing (a long, long, long time
ago), I had group lessons.. I didn't like that so much.. I think I then
got private lessons and started improving..

Joe Ramirez wrote:

"Johnny K" wrote in message
...

sorry to hear that.. I just started snowboarding a few weeks ago, but
didn't bother with lessons or anything.. What i did was go to my local
ski hill (wiht a massive 200foot vertical drop), and brought my friend
(who, as chance would have it, is a snowboard instructor there).. He
just showed me some basics (after watching me fly down the hill straight
the first time).. He err, held my hands, with my board perpendicular
to the slope, and had me put my weight on the front, and watch how it
starts to go straight down the hill.


It seems to me that hand holding is an obviously useful tool that could help
all beginners. At least some instructors apparently use it:
http://atearl.com/ski/snowboard_lesson4.html

But I suppose it might be hard to use in a group lesson.

Joe Ramirez

"Dmitry" wrote in message
news:8D4Pb.105603$na.66188@attbi_s04...

Joe,

Read your story and regretted nobody (me included) tried to really steer
you to the right place/time/equipment/company before. We should have
known
better.

Now, looks like you are not quite ready to give up, so here's some advice
that you may find useful.

1. Commit to it. Freaking decide for yourself that you'll make every
effort to snowboard this season. If you're "sport shopping" you're
wasting time. Wrong attitude - poor results. You probably understand
it better than I do

2. Practical stuff: go to a really good specialty snowboard shop (ask
around), make sure the knowledgeable boot fitter will be there when
you show up (call in advance). Buy yourself snowboard boots that fit
(heel lift is a keyword here). Wear them at home as much as you can,
and take them back to the shop for additional fitment if you're not
completely comfortable. I took mine, they used a press to bend the
plastic part in the front of the boot to better suit my feet's shape -
made all the difference. The key here is finding the knowledgeable
people (Borderline Snowboards in Bellevue, WA for me) who can do the
fitting. Budget - around $170 for a pair of decent boots, give or
take.

3. Rent a snowboard/bindings at specialty shop. Ask them what brand
and model boards/bindings do they have, and somebody in this group
will sure tell you what size to get. Price - around $30. Better yet,
buy a used board/bindings from classifieds or eBay, you can find a
very good beginner setup for around $150-200. You'll be able to sell
it next season with little loss when you're ready for better equipment.

There's always a financially based chicken & egg problem associated with
starting any complex, equipment-oriented activity, whether a sport or some
other pasttime. You don't want to spring for expensive gear until you're
sure you'll stay with the activity, but without your own gear it's very hard
to learn enough to get to the point of being able to stay with it. Sometimes
the only solution is to let the spending drive the decision, rather than
vice-versa. Buy the stuff and then you'll be forced to stay with the
activity just to ensure that the money wasn't wasted. g


4. Strap in at home the evening before you go to the slopes, and try
to envision/teach your muscles how to keep your balance over the board.
Imagine yourself riding, go to sleep trying to "prime" your mind for
the next day's riding.

5. Read a book. It's good to know the theory. "Illustrated guide
to snowboarding" is quite good, your local library probably has one.
It also has a very good beginner "ladder" with drills, pictures, tips
and all the good and useful stuff.

I am definitely considering this approach.

6. It would be best if there's a resort near you (however small -
doesn't matter) that has night runs. Go there after work for a
couple of hours of training one-two days a week. Great way to
get away from busywork, among other things. A book and desire to
learn should be enough, but friends who ride well can help. Learn
at your own pace, set realistic targets for the day. If you get
stuck, bring a video camera and ask someone to take a short video
of your riding, then analyse it at home. Or pay for an instructor.
Or ask here.

Ok, I've checked out 7springs.com and sure enough they have night
runs 'til 10PM. GO FOR IT!

Seven Springs is a little far for a roundtrip on a weekday night, but the
small Boyce Park ski area, which is much closer to home, is also open at
night, I believe. When I was learning to ice skate I would often go at night
after work, so I could probably pull this off.

Thanks for all the helpful advice.

Joe Ramirez

"LMG" wrote in message
.com...
"Joe Ramirez" wrote in message
...
We were on the beginners' slope, but the problem was that it was teeming
with beginners! There also seemed to be a lot of skiers "passing
through"
on
their way to someplace else.

each way. I was thinking about the Snowshoe resort in West Virginia,
which
is a four-hour drive from here. Anyone been there?

Joe Ramirez

My first trip ever was to Snowshoe last March. I'd never been on either
skis or snowboard. I didn't take a lesson, because a friend in my group
had
told me her experience with lessons was very similar to yours, and I
didn't
want to spend the money for something that might be a waste of time. She
told me to keep the board perpendicular to the slope, and "scrape" down it
until I felt comfortable with my balance on both edges. I spent the
majority of my first day on the hill falling on my butt and/or knees, but
by
the end of the day I could "crape down the slope on both heel and toe
edges,
and do the "falling leaf" on the green trails there. I didn't figure out
garland turns until the second day. By the night session (6-10pm) at
Silver
Creek, I was starting to link skidded turns, and boy was that a relief to
my
screaming leg muscles! I returned to Snowshoe three weeks ago for another
3-day trip. It was a weekend, and during the Christmas holiday period, so
it was very, very crowded. The beginner area where lessons are apparently
given is congested and crowded, and much like what you described at
7springs. I always walked or skated past this area to the top of the next
green trail. I encountered several people having a private lesson with a
Snowshoe instructor, and overheard what sounded like pretty decent
instructions and feedback to the rider. On the upside, the Silver Creek
area I mentioned, which is part of the Snowshoe resort but you have to
take
a short shuttle bus ride, also has a lesson area. There's also a
roped-off
beginner area with rolling carpet type lift and a run-out to keep you from
getting out of control. It's rather short, but if you're just working on
getting your balance it seems much better than the other area. If you go
outside the rope, the slope widens and has a very gentle grade when you
are
ready for a longer slope. The key things about Silver Creek is that it's
only open at night from 6-10, it's less crowded, and has a gentler
beginner
slope. The only thing I dislike about Snowshoe: it's expensive, from the
lift ticket to the food. I would definitely recommend giving Snowshoe a
try, especially if you can plan to go over to the Silver Creek area, but I
would suggest a weekday if at all possible.

How did you like the resort aside from the snowboarding opportunities? Was
it a picturesque place? Fun? Did you try the sleigh or snowmobile rides, or
snow tubing? My wife has no interest in boarding or skiing, so there has to
be some good reacreation for her (as well as for my son and me when we are
not trying to snowboard).

Thanks for your help,

Joe Ramirez

"Jason Watkins" wrote in message
om...

Never did the garland or the falling leaf.

Now we're starting to see something troubling. So the way they tried
to teach you was probibly something like: strap one foot in, glide for
a bit. Now when you glide, try changing direction by pointing where
you want to go with your front hand. Now try with both feet strapped
in. Now try going straight down the hill a little bit, then swing the
board around to stop.

Yep, that was about it. The whole thing seemed rushed to me. To use a
driving analogy, I felt as though I was being asked to pull out into traffic
without having done the foundational work in the empty parking lot to learn
how to control the car.

That's the way most people would try to teach your friend. It sort of
works, but it really only gives you a very limited ability to get down
hills or turn the board. It's not until you learn a bit more subtle
balance and how to make the board turn just by shifting weight that
you'll really start to get it. Falling leaf, and then doing garlands
gives you a nice progression. It's how I learned, and I definately
think it's the best way to go about it. If your lesson didn't follow
that progression, that really screams to me that they weren't doing a
good job.

Now they tell me! g Oh well, next time I'll know better.

Thanks,

Joe Ramirez