German Training Plans

I learned yesterday a source in the U.S. got a hold of the German
National Teams training plan. Has anyone else heard of this. It's no
secret the German's have been very successful recently having 3
different team members e.g. Sommerfelt, Teichman, and Angerer, winning
the overall WC in last 5 or 6 years. Apparently they are training at
really low heart rates for well over 1100 hours annually. Kind of
sounds like what Gunde Svan was doing in the 80's. Sports Physiology
is always interesting to discuss because for us average VO2 Max folks
we always hope we can squeeze something more out of our motor.

On Oct 6, 7:30 am, ADK Skier wrote:
I learned yesterday a source in the U.S. got a hold of the German
National Teams training plan. Has anyone else heard of this. It's no
secret the German's have been very successful recently having 3
different team members e.g. Sommerfelt, Teichman, and Angerer, winning
the overall WC in last 5 or 6 years. Apparently they are training at
really low heart rates for well over 1100 hours annually. Kind of
sounds like what Gunde Svan was doing in the 80's. Sports Physiology
is always interesting to discuss because for us average VO2 Max folks
we always hope we can squeeze something more out of our motor.

1100+ hours, huh? I'm not sure I'd call that good news for us
average, working, family Joes 'n Jeans.

Anyway, I think the gospel on improving VO2 is still interval work, on
top of a good base of endurance work. I think it's one of the few
things known pretty much for sure in the field. Could be these guys
all have such an awsome superior natural VO2 max that they don't
really need to improve on it, I suppose, but I doubt it. Could it be
an attempt to mislead the competition? Nah. . . . . . hmm.

An interesting, entertaining, lay-oriented read about the science and
business of fitness is Gina Kolata's book Ultimate Fitness. Made me
realize just how much myth and plain BS is believed and sold, and how
little we really know.

Randy

On Oct 7, 9:34 pm, "
wrote:
On Oct 6, 7:30 am, ADK Skier wrote:

I learned yesterday a source in the U.S. got a hold of the German
National Teams training plan. Has anyone else heard of this. It's no
secret the German's have been very successful recently having 3
different team members e.g. Sommerfelt, Teichman, and Angerer, winning
the overall WC in last 5 or 6 years. Apparently they are training at
really low heart rates for well over 1100 hours annually. Kind of
sounds like what Gunde Svan was doing in the 80's. Sports Physiology
is always interesting to discuss because for us average VO2 Max folks
we always hope we can squeeze something more out of our motor.

1100+ hours, huh? I'm not sure I'd call that good news for us
average, working, family Joes 'n Jeans.

Anyway, I think the gospel on improving VO2 is still interval work, on
top of a good base of endurance work. I think it's one of the few
things known pretty much for sure in the field. Could be these guys
all have such an awsome superior natural VO2 max that they don't
really need to improve on it, I suppose, but I doubt it. Could it be
an attempt to mislead the competition? Nah. . . . . . hmm.

An interesting, entertaining, lay-oriented read about the science and
business of fitness is Gina Kolata's book Ultimate Fitness. Made me
realize just how much myth and plain BS is believed and sold, and how
little we really know.

Randy

Thanks for that book recommendation; it looked so good that I ordered
a used copy for a cent through Amazon.

I wonder, though, if anyone can offer recommendations of simple,
straightforward training guides, either for endurance sports in
general or XC skiing in particular. I'm in okay shape, but I want to
really *train* for a couple ski marathons, and need to know where to
go now that I have a decent base. Do Lee Borowski's books hold any
water?

Thanks.

Thinking snow (and hoping for plenty of torrents this winter!),

Christopher

On Oct 9, 12:06 am, tassava wrote:
On Oct 7, 9:34 pm, "





wrote:
On Oct 6, 7:30 am, ADK Skier wrote:

I learned yesterday a source in the U.S. got a hold of the German
National Teams training plan. Has anyone else heard of this. It's no
secret the German's have been very successful recently having 3
different team members e.g. Sommerfelt, Teichman, and Angerer, winning
the overall WC in last 5 or 6 years. Apparently they are training at
really low heart rates for well over 1100 hours annually. Kind of
sounds like what Gunde Svan was doing in the 80's. Sports Physiology
is always interesting to discuss because for us average VO2 Max folks
we always hope we can squeeze something more out of our motor.

1100+ hours, huh? I'm not sure I'd call that good news for us
average, working, family Joes 'n Jeans.

Anyway, I think the gospel on improving VO2 is still interval work, on
top of a good base of endurance work. I think it's one of the few
things known pretty much for sure in the field. Could be these guys
all have such an awsome superior natural VO2 max that they don't
really need to improve on it, I suppose, but I doubt it. Could it be
an attempt to mislead the competition? Nah. . . . . . hmm.

An interesting, entertaining, lay-oriented read about the science and
business of fitness is Gina Kolata's book Ultimate Fitness. Made me
realize just how much myth and plain BS is believed and sold, and how
little we really know.

Randy

Thanks for that book recommendation; it looked so good that I ordered
a used copy for a cent through Amazon.

I wonder, though, if anyone can offer recommendations of simple,
straightforward training guides, either for endurance sports in
general or XC skiing in particular. I'm in okay shape, but I want to
really *train* for a couple ski marathons, and need to know where to
go now that I have a decent base. Do Lee Borowski's books hold any
water?

Thanks.

Thinking snow (and hoping for plenty of torrents this winter!),

Christopher- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have Lee's endurance training book. When it came out it really
turned heads. Many coaches said no one is training like that. However
what I found is his principles follow some very other successful
coaches advice. Mafetone coached Mark Allen to a record number of Iron
Man wins. Mafetone said we need to train at the highest aerobic level
just below Anaerobic Threshold level (the point where we develop
lactate). He felt this would bring about the fastest possible gains in
fitness. This closely mimics Lee's principle. However the majority of
the worlds elite ski racers don't follow these principles. Read a lot
and decide for yourself. I would pick up Joel Fiel's book about Tri
and Mt. bike training. He outlines heart values and benefits the best
I've seen.

On Oct 6, 7:30 am, ADK Skier wrote:
[ ] Apparently they are training at
really low heart rates for well over 1100 hours annually. [ ]

I remember 20 yrs ago when I was racing/training that I compared my
hours and levels to the US team and I was about on par for intervals---
but they had 6X more easy hours than I did. And, of course, they were
twice as fast as me. --JP

On Oct 9, 12:06 am, tassava wrote:
and need to know where to go now that I have a decent base.

On Oct 9, 8:21 am, ADK Skier wrote:
I would pick up Joel Fiel's book about Tri and Mt. bike training.


I agree w/ ADK Skier's recommendation about Joe Friel; his books are
some of the best and most easily understood about training, note that
they are new and revised in the 2nd Edition. His weight training plan
is the best I've seen and translates well to benefit nordic skiers.

One area of training I think is underemphasized is that of simple
nutrition and hydration. Not paying attention to this can reverse
hours of training simply because your body doesn't have the fuel to
perform.

The other area of training that is also underemphasized is that of
structure - not knowing what we are doing out there. Most of us
simply go out and ski or RS, with no goal in sight for the day. On
hard days, we don't go hard enough and on slow days we go too hard.

As for tassava's question on "where to go now", I would suggest a plan
for structured rollerski workouts. I think all of us would probably
gain more benefit from improvements in technique than we'll gain from
strength and fitness workouts.

My $ 0.02....

- Bob

Hi guys

Probably some people won't agree with me, but... Personally I was
in competitive xc skiing for 20 years, so I actually know at least
something. I might be wrong, but I would say debates about how to
train same way as top athletes are training, are pretty much useless.
When I was still skiing, I was skiing and nothing else. Skiing was my
job, and well... my life too. Once you have day job, and maybe family
on top of that, you have only few hours a day (probably a week, not a
day) to spend for this. With this, everything is pretty much useless.
So skiing (or any other sport) is just fun. And that means you go out
for fun, not to stick to some plan.
I still love to go skiing, but I go as I feel like. If I feel like, I
go at 180bps for 2 hours, but if I don't feel like, I go at 110bps for
30mins with stopping on top of every uphill to admire nature...
something I never did when I was still racing. Same thing goes for my
mtb rides (other sport I really love to do) in summer. It's fun, and
that's what sport (not top level sport of course) is suppose to be.
With day job, you will never be World cup winner, so it's useless to
bother with all sorts of plans and forcing yourself to some trainings.
Go out because you want to have fun, not because your plan says so.
I did both things... stick to plan, and now I go out to have fun, so I
know both sides. I don't regret not even for second, I spent 20 years
for sort of nothing (I never won anything like World cup, and I wasn't
even close to this anyway), and if I could choose again, I would go
again same way. But when it comes to fun, nowadays I have a lot more
fun then I had years ago, when I had to go out in cold and rain,
because my plan said so.
So have fun and enjoy, and don't bother with percentages of slow
training vs. fast intervals

Take care,
Primoz

On Oct 9, 12:06 am, tassava wrote:
On Oct 7, 9:34 pm, "





wrote:
On Oct 6, 7:30 am, ADK Skier wrote:

I learned yesterday a source in the U.S. got a hold of the German
National Teams training plan. Has anyone else heard of this. It's no
secret the German's have been very successful recently having 3
different team members e.g. Sommerfelt, Teichman, and Angerer, winning
the overall WC in last 5 or 6 years. Apparently they are training at
really low heart rates for well over 1100 hours annually. Kind of
sounds like what Gunde Svan was doing in the 80's. Sports Physiology
is always interesting to discuss because for us average VO2 Max folks
we always hope we can squeeze something more out of our motor.

1100+ hours, huh? I'm not sure I'd call that good news for us
average, working, family Joes 'n Jeans.

Anyway, I think the gospel on improving VO2 is still interval work, on
top of a good base of endurance work. I think it's one of the few
things known pretty much for sure in the field. Could be these guys
all have such an awsome superior natural VO2 max that they don't
really need to improve on it, I suppose, but I doubt it. Could it be
an attempt to mislead the competition? Nah. . . . . . hmm.

An interesting, entertaining, lay-oriented read about the science and
business of fitness is Gina Kolata's book Ultimate Fitness. Made me
realize just how much myth and plain BS is believed and sold, and how
little we really know.

Randy

Thanks for that book recommendation; it looked so good that I ordered
a used copy for a cent through Amazon.

I wonder, though, if anyone can offer recommendations of simple,
straightforward training guides, either for endurance sports in
general or XC skiing in particular. I'm in okay shape, but I want to
really *train* for a couple ski marathons, and need to know where to
go now that I have a decent base. Do Lee Borowski's books hold any
water?

Thanks.

Thinking snow (and hoping for plenty of torrents this winter!),

Christopher- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Chris,

I believe the book you seek is "How To When To Why To" by TorBjorn
Karlsen. He used to offer it on fasterskier. I'm unsure where you can
get it now, perhaps reliable racing.

Dell

When I see figures like 1100 hours, I'm always wondering what's
included. An LSD-centered program with regular L3-4 makes sense to me,
but I don't think there's one absolutely established source for
training advice, even for periodization. There's a debate, as you
probably know, between the role of LSD vs. interval block-based
regimes, and successful racers have come from both (so it is claimed).
Then, there are the matters of what of all this means for masters, how
much time you have, what your goals and limitations are, and what has
worked and not worked for you. I've found Dick Taylor's book No Pain No
Gain to be very helpful overall (sold via Akers). So has been following
Kris Freeman's development via Zach Caldwell's site, for a *feel of how
to proceed and what some of the issues are (2007 is there but not 2006).
Steinar Mundal's early fall program for masters posted on
fasterskier.com makes a lot of sense to me
(http://www.fasterskier.com/training4565.html). As does the advice from
Bob that each week and each workout have specific goals, even if
adjustment on the fly is needed, and that attention to technique be
part of everything. It's fun to just go out and have fun
recreationally, but it shouldn't be confused with training. Over
time I've gotten away from the Borowski method, or at least as I
interpreted it, because it seems insufficiently structured and tends
to combine different kinds of workouts way too much.

Roger



ADK Skier wrote:

I have Lee's endurance training book. When it came out it really
turned heads. Many coaches said no one is training like that. However
what I found is his principles follow some very other successful
coaches advice. Mafetone coached Mark Allen to a record number of Iron
Man wins. Mafetone said we need to train at the highest aerobic level
just below Anaerobic Threshold level (the point where we develop
lactate). He felt this would bring about the fastest possible gains in
fitness. This closely mimics Lee's principle. However the majority of
the worlds elite ski racers don't follow these principles. Read a lot
and decide for yourself. I would pick up Joel Fiel's book about Tri
and Mt. bike training. He outlines heart values and benefits the best
I've seen.

Well put Primoz. I think that is an excellent and insightful
perspective.