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#21
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In article ,
Champ wrote: I have to use my own effort? Really? Can't I use a helicopter? Please? Been there. Done that. Well, heliskiing is permitted in many areas. For most people, cost is more of an object there. But there are areas where it's not allowed. And there are other aspects which are not covered. -- |
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#22
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In article ,
Ulrich Hausmann wrote: was just there. Am Dienstag, den 28.02.2006, 14:25 +0000 schrieb Champ: I'd never heard the expression "out of bounds" before I visited a US mountain. I don't think it really has much meaning in Europe. With the exception of areas protected for environmental reasons, you can pretty much go where you want. Of course, you might die there, but that's your problem. I was really shocked when on my first visit to the US (Lake Tahoe) I saw a rope with a notice about whatever bit of the penal code I'd be breaking if I ducked under it. I was once picked in the initial jury pool of a civil law suit. The plantiff fell off a ladder and was suing the well known, in the US, Home Depot chain. The legal climate in the US is a bit different. BTW, can you use a few lawyers? In the Alps (and Scandinavia as well) the freedom to go everywhere it is due to the allmend rights (allman rights). The terrain (the mountains) do not belong to a juridical person (a single person, a company or whatelse) but to the comunity. So you cannot obstacle the persons to go there. (Some exceptions for Italy and Austria). I have seen some of those exceptions. You also leave a few other cases off. The US is a little different. If you ski here, you are going to have to be aware of those differences. That's even the case if, let's say, a lift company closes the runs for avalange danger etc. People can pass there anyway - but as you say correctly - on their own risk. European lifts tend not to own the land and be subject to liability. In the US some are private land, and some are leased from public agencies. Generally, i do not think there is so much difference between backcountry in USA and Canada and the Alps on the other hand (we call it ski randonnee or, in Sweden or Norway fjelltelemarking). But, i think, the Alps have a closer infrastructure of huts, cabane ecc. And an excellent and close emergency support. You have mentioned the big difference: you have a big infrastructure. Delicious. The US as a whole has a lower population density in ski areas. We have nothing like any area with 450+ ski lifts much less X-C and other associated winter activities. Europe has a lower tree line. Most of your recreational skis areas have most of their infrastructure above tree line. The US has to mostly cut a lot of timber to make areas (people complain of altitude). You guys have heavily cut down your forests. You have to come to the US to see many trees with diameters much greater than a meter. As for the mortal accidents in avalanches, i don't think there's so much difference between the Alps and Northamerica - at least not if you put the accidents in comparison to the people doing ski randonnee ... Well, you would have to bring this up with the SLF in Davos. The physics are mostly the same, save younger trees in the Alps. You have more people doing Nordic and randonnee. I saw many more avalanche classes (free, too, bring gear) in the Alps and you have to pay to field work here. -- |
#23
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In article ,
Martin Thornquist wrote: but what do you call xc skiing on groomed tracks in the backcountry? [ *@*.* ] Track skiing. Modern groomed tracks are a far cry from natural Track skiing. Wow, Marcus and I agree on something! 8^) My main point was in the part you snipped, that there is a continuum from perfectly groomed tracks which I wouldn't call "backcountry" via several categories down to marked routes only done once in a while with snowmobile to maintain marking and pack the snow somewhat. What do you call backcountry and what not? Look I see a spectrum, too, but unless we have a specific reason for making a distinction, I don't see a point except to try to make a definition to the subdirectories for this storage to beat people into a rut of this group and not rsa, rsn, etc. What are you looking for? That will determine a definition. You will find it circular and recursive. Skiing lacking certain knowledge is merely deficient skiing. Perhaps a bit like the difference between road cycling and mountain biking. Except bigger. This is pretty similar, there's a wide selection of paved roads, good gravel roads, not so good gravel roads, good paths, smaller paths. I've biked on all of them (well, dragged the bike along the smallest paths), and I'm not sure where you would draw the lines. Some people use cyclocross (beefed-up road racers) for path biking these days... Oh kinda. Tracks get placed for various reasons. A big part is the snow gets chopped up enough the beginners. Racing seeks consistency. etc. Speaking of cycling, a prepared XC-skiing track (skating style) is great for cycling. In summer too, btw. Around here they can be great for a while (in summer), and then suddenly you're in the middle of a swamp with mud up to the knees. :-) Sounds like Alaska. The snow machiners tend to like them to skier consernation some times. -- |
#24
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In article ,
Martin Thornquist wrote: in the backcountry? Around here we have vast networks of (different states of) groomed tracks streching far into the woods and the mountains. with snowmobiles but without set tracks -- not snowmobile routes, we Who pays for the gas? don't have those outside of the far North as recreational snowmobiling is banned, they are run with snowmobiles to pack the snow and mark the route for skiers. Does it turn from deep backcountry in summer to not backcountry in winter because a groomed track was laid down? How far from a road (infrastructure)? -- |
#25
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
In article , Champ wrote: On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 19:54:51 +0000 (UTC), Booker C. Bense bbense+rec.skiing.backcountry.Feb.23.06@telemark .slac.stanford.edu wrote: I don't know the deffinition for back country skiing. Would someone please tell me what it is? If you're using your own effort to get up the hills and you're not skiing on a prepared track, that's backcountry skiing. I have to use my own effort? Really? Can't I use a helicopter? Please? _ You are confusing two things "skiing in the backcountry" - This can be heliskiing, cat skiing, snowmobile jouring, skating through wilderness on prepared tracks. and "backcountry skiing", which IMHO has two fundemental features. 1. Self powered. 2. While you may be on previously tracked trails, you can leave them at any point to choose your own route. All of the first category can be highly enjoyable, entail many of the risks BC skiing and may require as much if not more wilderness knowledge and experience, but they aren't "backcountry skiing". Some pedant is going to bring up kite skiing soon, and that one I"m undecided on. The distinction I'm trying to draw is that backcountry skiing is a kind of activity, and not really much of a statement about where you're skiing. It's much more about how you're skiing and what's required of your equipment. (i.e. you should be able to go uphill with it[1] and you don't need a prepared track to use it. ) _ Booker C. Bense [1]- This may involve taking the skis off and walking. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBRAXn62TWTAjn5N/lAQGUqQP+J4kTC7351+/wmVnMwPqfQYWH2UlJFdoY tv5P07NEXDSxKSjQdyjiZtuKc6AN3TrpASkGMxMn4yVpTT5XML AFU0PBvS1TF4Gg JkID3Et8ngiFcYvb3uBul10N9WXdhF8khFcwW22HWKFmdRspLg LApVAbdHFI9IZr hj+u1RwDD5c= =6D6L -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
#26
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On Wed, 1 Mar 2006 18:29:00 +0000 (UTC), Booker C. Bense
bbense+rec.skiing.backcountry.Mar.01.06@telemark. slac.stanford.edu wrote: If you're using your own effort to get up the hills and you're not skiing on a prepared track, that's backcountry skiing. I have to use my own effort? Really? Can't I use a helicopter? Please? _ You are confusing two things "skiing in the backcountry" - This can be heliskiing, cat skiing, snowmobile jouring, skating through wilderness on prepared tracks. and "backcountry skiing", which IMHO has two fundemental features. 1. Self powered. 2. While you may be on previously tracked trails, you can leave them at any point to choose your own route. This seems to be a bizarre distinction to me, and not one that I would expect anyone else to understand. I think I'll just give up on the use of "backcountry", and stick with the euro term "off-piste". -- Champ |
#27
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Am Mittwoch, den 01.03.2006, 10:55 -0700 schrieb Eugene Miya:
The US is a little different. If you ski here, you are going to have to be aware of those differences. That's even the case if, let's say, a lift company closes the runs for avalange danger etc. People can pass there anyway - but as you say correctly - on their own risk. European lifts tend not to own the land and be subject to liability. In the US some are private land, and some are leased from public agencies. Exactly, that's what i wanted to say. At least in Switzerland, it's unthinkable that a lift company owns, let's say a mountain, and therefore can do with it, what they want. For historical reasons, that's different for example for Austria, where the land was owned until the democratic revolution and even further by the aristocracy. Generally, i do not think there is so much difference between backcountry in USA and Canada and the Alps on the other hand (we call it ski randonnee or, in Sweden or Norway fjelltelemarking). But, i think, the Alps have a closer infrastructure of huts, cabane ecc. And an excellent and close emergency support. You have mentioned the big difference: you have a big infrastructure. Delicious. The US as a whole has a lower population density in ski areas. We have nothing like any area with 450+ ski lifts much less X-C and other associated winter activities. Europe has a lower tree line. Most of your recreational skis areas have most of their infrastructure above tree line. The US has to mostly cut a lot of timber to make areas (people complain of altitude). I did not mean the infrastructure as a lift (and lift-served) system, but the system of high alpine huts, igloos ecc. And the organisation of the emergency (in case of avalanches). Yes, for the lower tree line, but sincerely, most of the alpine ski areas are within anyway. At least, where i'm living (Bas Valais - near Martigny), save Verbier, all the resorts are mostly within the treeline or only the top of the lifts is out of, but not the base and the lower parts. You guys have heavily cut down your forests. You have to come to the US to see many trees with diameters much greater than a meter. But, on the other hand, many forests in the alps, you can see nowadays, are not "natural" but artificially created by men (as avalanche protection - as one of a lot of examples: http://www.myswitzerland.com/en/navp...ays&id=344 48 ) The smaller trees ecc. are also the consequence of a rougher climate. As for the mortal accidents in avalanches, i don't think there's so much difference between the Alps and Northamerica - at least not if you put the accidents in comparison to the people doing ski randonnee ... Well, you would have to bring this up with the SLF in Davos. The physics are mostly the same, save younger trees in the Alps. I also think the conformation of the terrain is slightly different. Save some areas in Alaska and British Columbia, the Alps seems to be steeper and with more glaciers and the intrinsecal problems (crevasses, seracs). Moreover, the snow is different: We do not have the champaign powder, but very often light, but at the same time umid snow, which is "ideal" for snow slides (i don't know the correct english term for that kind of avalanaches). You have more people doing Nordic and randonnee. I saw many more avalanche classes (free, too, bring gear) in the Alps and you have to pay to field work here. That might be a significant difference. If you're a member of one of the national alpine clubs (CAS, CAI, CAF, OeAV, DAV ecc.) you can get a complete randonnee formation at nearly nothing (ok, you'll have to pay for sleeping and eating, but that's it). Best wishes, Ulrich |
#28
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
In article , Champ wrote: On Wed, 1 Mar 2006 18:29:00 +0000 (UTC), Booker C. Bense bbense+rec.skiing.backcountry.Mar.01.06@telemark .slac.stanford.edu wrote: If you're using your own effort to get up the hills and you're not skiing on a prepared track, that's backcountry skiing. I have to use my own effort? Really? Can't I use a helicopter? Please? _ You are confusing two things "skiing in the backcountry" - This can be heliskiing, cat skiing, snowmobile jouring, skating through wilderness on prepared tracks. and "backcountry skiing", which IMHO has two fundemental features. 1. Self powered. 2. While you may be on previously tracked trails, you can leave them at any point to choose your own route. This seems to be a bizarre distinction to me, and not one that I would expect anyone else to understand. _ Well, it's American so by definition should be bizarre to an Englishman. Nobody in the USA would call heli-skiing "backcountry skiing". It's heli-skiing... At least amoung the people I converse with I don't think they would find that definition too far from common use. I think I'll just give up on the use of "backcountry", and stick with the euro term "off-piste". _ Sure, that means where and not what. I mostly make the distinction because there is a whole class of skiing gear that is rightly or wrong called "Backcountry". _ Booker C. Bense -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBRAYP1WTWTAjn5N/lAQGFUQP9ES/oiHez438JYpbZbMb6R/jGMP2xH936 aYszGXL0WS0UkyFLL9UIOoH5hTaaOmmqe8mlVVMRC9LwMmR1jf HpyQUy6eRTYJ+S jwaKJbj+bJKJ8M48cDwPLQQMno8XVNtHVIfJuCbGJbm6QX3qmD FNFSGcgyM+vYuy o3l0kM4ZJBQ= =HRUi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
#29
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[ Eugene Miya ]
In article , Martin Thornquist wrote: in the backcountry? Around here we have vast networks of (different states of) groomed tracks streching far into the woods and the mountains. with snowmobiles but without set tracks -- not snowmobile routes, we Who pays for the gas? In the mountains, Turistforeningen (the Walker's Association) or its local chapters mostly. In the woods, different organisations, sports clubs and local government (mostly Skiforeningen in Oslo). don't have those outside of the far North as recreational snowmobiling is banned, they are run with snowmobiles to pack the snow and mark the route for skiers. Does it turn from deep backcountry in summer to not backcountry in winter because a groomed track was laid down? How far from a road (infrastructure)? As far as one can get in Southern Norway -- several tens of kilometers. We don't have any really vast areas with no roads at all, most places fertile enough to feed a cow and a few sheep have been populated the last 1000 years. Martin -- "An ideal world is left as an exercise to the reader." -Paul Graham, On Lisp |
#30
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[ Eugene Miya ]
What are you looking for? Why, nitpicking, of course! Isn't that what Usenet news is all about? Actually I was interested in Booker's definition of backcountry skiing, but I see now that he makes a distinction I don't really get between "backcountry skiing" and "skiing in the backcountry". Oh well, I guess I'll just continue with a happy mixture of lift-served and self-propelled skiing and not bother about definitions. Martin -- "An ideal world is left as an exercise to the reader." -Paul Graham, On Lisp |
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