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Stopping and Turning (redux)
Picking up a post and article of Nathan's from 2/20/05 re downhill
technique. In discussing the different turns, it says, "Think of the Skate Turn as the inside ski doing a step turn while the outside ski is marathon skating." Is this marathon skate technique turn allowed when out of the tracks on downhill turns in classical races? Gene --------------- Hi Randy, Here is an article I wrote for Master Skier a few years ago. It might help a bit. Hopefully the formatting won't be too messed up. If you want a cleaner copy, email me directly and I'll send you a PDF or something. Good Luck, Nathan www.nsavage.com One of the most surprising things I have learned from coaching is how little most cross-country skiers know about descending. Even expert skiers who have spent countless hours honing technique often have no concept of how to descend and corner. Downhills should be fun, not scary. Learning to descend with confidence and speed is actually quite simple, and with a little knowledge and practice most people make dramatic improvements in a very short time. As with all skiing techniques, proper descending starts with the correct body position. This fundamental position is a relaxed stance with feet slightly wider than shoulder-width apart, with a lowered center of gravity created by bending at the knees and ankles. The upper body and arms should be forward, leading with the hands at roughly stomach- to chest-level. This position creates a stable, dynamic platform that maximizes balance and control. By staying relaxed, one can soak up terrain changes, while the wide stance allows initiation of comfortable, stable turns and quick lateral movement when needed. To get comfortable with this position, begin on a flat trail at low speed. A very wide trail or Alpine hill is best to give room to experiment and allow for the inevitable errors. Gradually increase the speed and steepness as you become more confident. Once you have mastered the basic position, you can increase speed and stability by lowering into an aerodynamic tuck. You can move between the tuck and fundamental downhill position when corners and other obstacles present themselves. From the basic downhill position, create a tuck by bending at the knees and waist so the back is horizontal. Look forward, placing hands in front of the mouth and resting the elbows on the thighs, just behind the knees. Poles should rest in the fold of the waist and be horizontal, not sticking straight up as seen in countless back-of-the-pack Birkie photos. To maximize speed and also get a nice leg burn, move lower by putting the elbows in front of the knees. Once you can hurl yourself at top-speed downhill comfortably, it's time to learn how to negotiate those pesky corners lurking at the bottom. Approach all corners in the same way: relax, check body position, and look where you want to go, not at the scary things you want to avoid such as trees and that guy in the power-wedge tuck with poles sticking straight up. Think positively: visualize how you will negotiate the turn, not what will happen if you ski off the trail. This may seem silly, but crashing is a certainty if you let thoughts of crashing creep in your head. Don't panic - keep a clear head and you will surprise yourself with what you can do. Next, choose your line and set up accordingly. Generally, the best line will be the largest radius arc. This arc begins on the outside of the curve, swoops to the inside at the apex of the turn, and then moves back outside at exit. This line may need to be altered due to conditions such as when a corner has been scraped down to bedrock by 5000 snowplowing skiers. Initiate turns by moving the outside hand forward and pointing your body in the direction of travel. Make sure your weight is low and forward to maximize stability. Now it is time to perform the turn. There are four basic XC turns to choose from: Step, Skate, Snowplow, and Slide. Each has distinct advantages that make it useful in specific situations. It is helpful to note that in all of these, the inside ski steers the skier through the turn. The Step Turn is accomplished by making quick steps toward the inside of the corner, changing direction slightly with each step. It is useful for small changes in direction or turns where you don't want to add or subtract speed. To perform the step turn, begin by weighting the outside ski, then pick up the inside ski and step in toward the corner, pointing the inside ski a little bit toward the inside of the curve. Transfer weight to the inside ski and then bring the outside ski back in parallel to the inside ski. Repeat, taking small, quick steps as many times as needed to complete the turn. Poles are not used during a step turn. The Skate Turn is a combination of the Step Turn and the Marathon Skate. This turn moves the skier quickly around the corner while adding significant speed. The Marathon Skate is skating with one ski while the other ski rests in the classic track. For those who have never heard of this, rent a circa-1980 ski video and practice what you see until you get at least three surly glares from knicker-clad classical skiers. Think of the Skate Turn as the inside ski doing a step turn while the outside ski is marathon skating. The turn begins by skating hard off the outside ski while (optionally) poling toward the inside of the corner. At the end of the skate stroke, place the inside ski as in a step turn: toward the inside of the corner, pointed slightly in the direction of the turn. Glide on the inside ski while hauling in the outside ski in preparation to repeat the cycle. Repeat as many times as needed to negotiate the curve. The Snowplow Turn is useful when you want to check your speed through a corner and don't mind being teased by snooty Master Skier writers. The "Wedge" can be done in varying degrees depending on the slowing power required. However, it is not the best way to stop or turn quickly, despite its wide acceptance for these purposes in the latter waves of many ski marathons. Initiate the Snowplow Turn by actively steering the skis toward each other to form a wedge. As the skis move into the wedge position, bend the knees and shift the weight to the inside edges. Lean into the corner slightly and steer the inside ski in the direction of the turn. Shift weight to the inside edge of the outside ski to increase turning power. Steer using both feet around the corner while the outside ski slides across the snow. Don't rotate your body much; move as a whole while keeping your weight low and forward. The wedge puts the knees in danger if the legs are forced wide or the knees are straightened, so be careful with it and use other methods when you can. A better way to stop or take a tight, fast corner is a Slide or Parallel Turn. This turn gives you maximum cornering and stopping ability, but can scrub speed significantly. There are two components: carving and sliding. The carve is created by flexing the ski in an arc and applying the inside edge to the snow, turning the skis along this "carved" arc. Unfortunately, cross-country skis do not carve particularly well, and in order to turn quickly, we often have to turn our skis in the direction we want to travel by first sliding them and then applying weight to the edges in order to complete the turn. Initiate a parallel turn by standing up slightly to unweight the skis. Begin turning the inside ski by leaning uphill and into the turn while forcing your body around with your hips. As you steer your inside ski toward the direction of the turn, keep leaning uphill, bend your knees, and load the inside edge of the outside ski. Uphill lean is important here - the pull of gravity will be balanced by the force of the turn and any deceleration caused by sliding. The skis should be roughly parallel to each other as you come back down on them and set your inside edges. The majority of your weight should come down on your outside ski. The degree of sliding controls how quickly speed is reduced. Create slide by turning the skis past the direction of travel before transferring weight to the inside edges. The degree of sliding depends on how far past the turn direction you go - perpendicular to the direction of travel will produce a hockey stop, while a slight overturn will create a minor skid. To carve without sliding, point the skis in the direction you want to turn, arc the skis by first applying pressure forward to the tip of the ski and then back as the edges dig in and the skis begin to bend. Steer through the turn with both feet, keeping the edges down and the skis arced. Exiting a parallel turn involves moving off the edges while using the inside leg and momentum to push you out of the uphill lean and back to a neutral position. Armed with the basic body position and a small repertoire of turns, downhills become one of the pure delights of skiing. Learn these techniques, spread the word, and banish forever the panic-stricken power wedge. Please. |
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Gene Goldenfeld wrote:
Picking up a post and article of Nathan's from 2/20/05 re downhill technique. In discussing the different turns, it says, "Think of the Skate Turn as the inside ski doing a step turn while the outside ski is marathon skating." Is this marathon skate technique turn allowed when out of the tracks on downhill turns in classical races? Gene To clarify, I'm asking about a downhill curve, out of tracks, where because of speed the goal of the outward push is for direction and balance and maintaining speed, not propulsion. --------------- Hi Randy, Here is an article I wrote for Master Skier a few years ago. It might help a bit. Hopefully the formatting won't be too messed up. If you want a cleaner copy, email me directly and I'll send you a PDF or something. Good Luck, Nathan www.nsavage.com One of the most surprising things I have learned from coaching is how little most cross-country skiers know about descending. Even expert skiers who have spent countless hours honing technique often have no concept of how to descend and corner. Downhills should be fun, not scary. Learning to descend with confidence and speed is actually quite simple, and with a little knowledge and practice most people make dramatic improvements in a very short time. As with all skiing techniques, proper descending starts with the correct body position. This fundamental position is a relaxed stance with feet slightly wider than shoulder-width apart, with a lowered center of gravity created by bending at the knees and ankles. The upper body and arms should be forward, leading with the hands at roughly stomach- to chest-level. This position creates a stable, dynamic platform that maximizes balance and control. By staying relaxed, one can soak up terrain changes, while the wide stance allows initiation of comfortable, stable turns and quick lateral movement when needed. To get comfortable with this position, begin on a flat trail at low speed. A very wide trail or Alpine hill is best to give room to experiment and allow for the inevitable errors. Gradually increase the speed and steepness as you become more confident. Once you have mastered the basic position, you can increase speed and stability by lowering into an aerodynamic tuck. You can move between the tuck and fundamental downhill position when corners and other obstacles present themselves. From the basic downhill position, create a tuck by bending at the knees and waist so the back is horizontal. Look forward, placing hands in front of the mouth and resting the elbows on the thighs, just behind the knees. Poles should rest in the fold of the waist and be horizontal, not sticking straight up as seen in countless back-of-the-pack Birkie photos. To maximize speed and also get a nice leg burn, move lower by putting the elbows in front of the knees. Once you can hurl yourself at top-speed downhill comfortably, it's time to learn how to negotiate those pesky corners lurking at the bottom. Approach all corners in the same way: relax, check body position, and look where you want to go, not at the scary things you want to avoid such as trees and that guy in the power-wedge tuck with poles sticking straight up. Think positively: visualize how you will negotiate the turn, not what will happen if you ski off the trail. This may seem silly, but crashing is a certainty if you let thoughts of crashing creep in your head. Don't panic - keep a clear head and you will surprise yourself with what you can do. Next, choose your line and set up accordingly. Generally, the best line will be the largest radius arc. This arc begins on the outside of the curve, swoops to the inside at the apex of the turn, and then moves back outside at exit. This line may need to be altered due to conditions such as when a corner has been scraped down to bedrock by 5000 snowplowing skiers. Initiate turns by moving the outside hand forward and pointing your body in the direction of travel. Make sure your weight is low and forward to maximize stability. Now it is time to perform the turn. There are four basic XC turns to choose from: Step, Skate, Snowplow, and Slide. Each has distinct advantages that make it useful in specific situations. It is helpful to note that in all of these, the inside ski steers the skier through the turn. The Step Turn is accomplished by making quick steps toward the inside of the corner, changing direction slightly with each step. It is useful for small changes in direction or turns where you don't want to add or subtract speed. To perform the step turn, begin by weighting the outside ski, then pick up the inside ski and step in toward the corner, pointing the inside ski a little bit toward the inside of the curve. Transfer weight to the inside ski and then bring the outside ski back in parallel to the inside ski. Repeat, taking small, quick steps as many times as needed to complete the turn. Poles are not used during a step turn. The Skate Turn is a combination of the Step Turn and the Marathon Skate. This turn moves the skier quickly around the corner while adding significant speed. The Marathon Skate is skating with one ski while the other ski rests in the classic track. For those who have never heard of this, rent a circa-1980 ski video and practice what you see until you get at least three surly glares from knicker-clad classical skiers. Think of the Skate Turn as the inside ski doing a step turn while the outside ski is marathon skating. The turn begins by skating hard off the outside ski while (optionally) poling toward the inside of the corner. At the end of the skate stroke, place the inside ski as in a step turn: toward the inside of the corner, pointed slightly in the direction of the turn. Glide on the inside ski while hauling in the outside ski in preparation to repeat the cycle. Repeat as many times as needed to negotiate the curve. The Snowplow Turn is useful when you want to check your speed through a corner and don't mind being teased by snooty Master Skier writers. The "Wedge" can be done in varying degrees depending on the slowing power required. However, it is not the best way to stop or turn quickly, despite its wide acceptance for these purposes in the latter waves of many ski marathons. Initiate the Snowplow Turn by actively steering the skis toward each other to form a wedge. As the skis move into the wedge position, bend the knees and shift the weight to the inside edges. Lean into the corner slightly and steer the inside ski in the direction of the turn. Shift weight to the inside edge of the outside ski to increase turning power. Steer using both feet around the corner while the outside ski slides across the snow. Don't rotate your body much; move as a whole while keeping your weight low and forward. The wedge puts the knees in danger if the legs are forced wide or the knees are straightened, so be careful with it and use other methods when you can. A better way to stop or take a tight, fast corner is a Slide or Parallel Turn. This turn gives you maximum cornering and stopping ability, but can scrub speed significantly. There are two components: carving and sliding. The carve is created by flexing the ski in an arc and applying the inside edge to the snow, turning the skis along this "carved" arc. Unfortunately, cross-country skis do not carve particularly well, and in order to turn quickly, we often have to turn our skis in the direction we want to travel by first sliding them and then applying weight to the edges in order to complete the turn. Initiate a parallel turn by standing up slightly to unweight the skis. Begin turning the inside ski by leaning uphill and into the turn while forcing your body around with your hips. As you steer your inside ski toward the direction of the turn, keep leaning uphill, bend your knees, and load the inside edge of the outside ski. Uphill lean is important here - the pull of gravity will be balanced by the force of the turn and any deceleration caused by sliding. The skis should be roughly parallel to each other as you come back down on them and set your inside edges. The majority of your weight should come down on your outside ski. The degree of sliding controls how quickly speed is reduced. Create slide by turning the skis past the direction of travel before transferring weight to the inside edges. The degree of sliding depends on how far past the turn direction you go - perpendicular to the direction of travel will produce a hockey stop, while a slight overturn will create a minor skid. To carve without sliding, point the skis in the direction you want to turn, arc the skis by first applying pressure forward to the tip of the ski and then back as the edges dig in and the skis begin to bend. Steer through the turn with both feet, keeping the edges down and the skis arced. Exiting a parallel turn involves moving off the edges while using the inside leg and momentum to push you out of the uphill lean and back to a neutral position. Armed with the basic body position and a small repertoire of turns, downhills become one of the pure delights of skiing. Learn these techniques, spread the word, and banish forever the panic-stricken power wedge. Please. |
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Gene Goldenfeld wrote:
Gene Goldenfeld wrote: Picking up a post and article of Nathan's from 2/20/05 re downhill technique. In discussing the different turns, it says, "Think of the Skate Turn as the inside ski doing a step turn while the outside ski is marathon skating." Is this marathon skate technique turn allowed when out of the tracks on downhill turns in classical races? To clarify, I'm asking about a downhill curve, out of tracks, where because of speed the goal of the outward push is for direction and balance and maintaining speed, not propulsion. Under these circumstances, it is nearly impossibly to make an "illegal" turn, in fact the only choices you really have are to either snowplow or skid, a pure step turn won't be fast enough. OTOH, you can often combine, i.e. start by skidding, then finish the turn with a few steps as soon as you're pointing in nearly the proper direction. Think positively: visualize how you will negotiate the turn, not what will happen if you ski off the trail. This may seem silly, but crashing is a certainty if you let thoughts of crashing creep in your head. Don't panic - keep a clear head and you will surprise yourself with what you can do. This is actually even more critical that you might think: The _only_ way to go fast downhill under tricky conditions is to absolutely believe that you can and will make it. I've told previously about my favourite Nordmarka downhill, the trail from Finnerud down to the Sørkedalen school parking: The descent profile is similar (slightly scaled-down :-)) to the Kitzbühl downhill run, but mostly just wide enough for the track setter, with tall spruce trees on both sides. There's so many (more or less blind) turns down this hillside that except under glazed conditions you cannot get into really high speeds, maximum velocity is probably no more than 40-60 kph. OTOH, with all the drops and turns, and the trees flashing by on both sides, this feels a _lot_ faster than twice this speed on alpine downhill gear/slopes. Under good condtions, this run is the perfect end to a day's skiing in Nordmarka, but you _must_ be confident to be able to enjoy it. :-) Terje PS. We now have snow in Marka for the third time this winter, today I had my first ski trip to Skjennungen with my son. :-) PPS. There is one more turn you can do, particularly when skiing in powder: The original Telemark turn! Find a nice, steep slope, something like a slalom hill with 30-50 cm fresh poder on it is perfect: Even though xc skis have zero or even negative incut, making normal edge carving impossible, you can still create a very long curve by putting your weight on the uphill ski while trailing the other ski far behind. By keeping the trailing ski tip close to the front boot, you can create a very long (about 3 m) curve from the front ski tip to the back ski tail. This is unfortunately a quite unstable configuration, but when/if you make it, it is a lot of fun! -- - "almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching" |
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Gene Goldenfeld wrote:
Gene Goldenfeld wrote: Picking up a post and article of Nathan's from 2/20/05 re downhill technique. In discussing the different turns, it says, "Think of the Skate Turn as the inside ski doing a step turn while the outside ski is marathon skating." Is this marathon skate technique turn allowed when out of the tracks on downhill turns in classical races? Gene To clarify, I'm asking about a downhill curve, out of tracks, where because of speed the goal of the outward push is for direction and balance and maintaining speed, not propulsion. Gene, As I understand it, the rule is that where no tramlines have been cut, then skate-turns are allowed. The place, where tramlines are not cut, is on downhill corners where it is too fast to stay in tracks. Decision is made by the technical director for the race. Extract from FIS rules below. Of course this applies to FIS races. For the rest, I suppose it is up to the race referee. Does that answer your question? Cheers Alex. "THE INTERNATIONAL SKI COMPETITION RULES 314 Technique Definitions 314.1 Classical Technique 314.1.1 Classical technique includes the diagonal techniques, the double poling techniques, herringbone techniques without a gliding phase, downhill techniques and turning techniques. Single or double-skating is not allowed. Turning techniques comprise steps and pushes in order to change direc- tions. Where there is a set track, turning techniques with pushing are NOT allowed. This will also apply to competitors skiing outside of the set track. Preparation for Classical Technique 315.3.1 For interval start competitions in classical technique a single track should be set along the ideal skiing line of the competition course. The track is normally set in the middle of the course except through curves. In curves there should only be set track where the skis can glide unrestrained in the set track. Where the curves are too sharp and the speed is considered to be too high to stay in the track, the track should be removed. To decide the proper course preparation and track setting, the best competitors and highest possible speed must be taken into consideration. In curves the track is to be set close to the fence to avoid the possibility to ski between the track and the fence." |
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Yes, it does answer it. In fact, it seems to ok race skate turns where
speed is gained. Thanks. Gene "Alex" wrote: Gene Goldenfeld wrote: Gene Goldenfeld wrote: Picking up a post and article of Nathan's from 2/20/05 re downhill technique. In discussing the different turns, it says, "Think of the Skate Turn as the inside ski doing a step turn while the outside ski is marathon skating." Is this marathon skate technique turn allowed when out of the tracks on downhill turns in classical races? Gene To clarify, I'm asking about a downhill curve, out of tracks, where because of speed the goal of the outward push is for direction and balance and maintaining speed, not propulsion. Gene, As I understand it, the rule is that where no tramlines have been cut, then skate-turns are allowed. The place, where tramlines are not cut, is on downhill corners where it is too fast to stay in tracks. Decision is made by the technical director for the race. Extract from FIS rules below. Of course this applies to FIS races. For the rest, I suppose it is up to the race referee. Does that answer your question? Cheers Alex. "THE INTERNATIONAL SKI COMPETITION RULES 314 Technique Definitions 314.1 Classical Technique 314.1.1 Classical technique includes the diagonal techniques, the double poling techniques, herringbone techniques without a gliding phase, downhill techniques and turning techniques. Single or double-skating is not allowed. Turning techniques comprise steps and pushes in order to change direc- tions. Where there is a set track, turning techniques with pushing are NOT allowed. This will also apply to competitors skiing outside of the set track. Preparation for Classical Technique 315.3.1 For interval start competitions in classical technique a single track should be set along the ideal skiing line of the competition course. The track is normally set in the middle of the course except through curves. In curves there should only be set track where the skis can glide unrestrained in the set track. Where the curves are too sharp and the speed is considered to be too high to stay in the track, the track should be removed. To decide the proper course preparation and track setting, the best competitors and highest possible speed must be taken into consideration. In curves the track is to be set close to the fence to avoid the possibility to ski between the track and the fence." |
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Terje Mathisen wrote:
Snip I've told previously about my favourite Nordmarka downhill, the trail from Finnerud down to the S=F8rkedalen school parking: The descent profile is similar (slightly scaled-down :-)) to the Kitzb=FChl downhill run, but mostly just wide enough for the track setter, with tall spruce trees on both sides. There's so many (more or less blind) turns down this hillside that except under glazed conditions you cannot get into really high speeds, maximum velocity is probably no more than 40-60 kph. OTOH, with all the drops and turns, and the trees flashing by on both sides, this feels a _lot_ faster than twice this speed on alpine downhill gear/slopes. Under good condtions, this run is the perfect end to a day's skiing in Nordmarka, but you _must_ be confident to be able to enjoy it. :-) It's a long time since I skied in Nordmarka, but I seem to remember a lot of runs that fit that description! I used to do them on wooden skis with three-pin bindings and leather Adidas racing boots, which had all the torsional strength of a wash-leather. The run I do recall, was called (I think) Den Skomakeren (The Shoemaker). It ran from one of the tram stations at the top of the hill (Voksenkollen?) down to Tryvannstua alongside the Slalom slope used in the Oslo Olympics. It was very busy and used to get very icy. This was before the Skiforeningen had a track machine, so the only track preparation was a few old boys who used to ski around a bit. Is it still there? Terje snip PPS. There is one more turn you can do, particularly when skiing in powder: The original Telemark turn! snip This brings us neatly back to racing turns. Most of the racers turn on the flat (if it is a sharp turn) by using the Finnstep. Hard to describe for those who can't get the skiing on telly, but it is a sort of cross-between the diagonal gait and a telemark turn. Alex |
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Stopping and turning | Randy Bryan | Nordic Skiing | 11 | February 23rd 05 03:31 PM |