Making progress, a ways to go!

Hi Everyone,

After taking to heart some of the advice from this NG, and getting good
well-fitting equipment, and working on my technique, I am now able to
say that my classic speed is the same as my skating speed.

This has been a dramatic improvement. I am very pleased, and I am
looking forward to testing myself at the upcoming Birkebeiner. But my
new-found speed also raises some questions. My local loop is about 40%
up, 40% down, and 20% almost flat. The up is for the most part much
steeper than the down. The climbing sections are not so steep that I
need to resort to herringbone while skiing classic, but they are steep
enough that I struggle to maintain momentum while skating. I don't
herringbone but I really suffer. Does the severity of the climbs
explain why my classic time is now the same as my skating time for this
loop? Is classic "easier" on steep climbs than skating, or is that just
my perception?

I also am having trouble determining the best sort of stride for
classic. I don't do much diagonal stride as that only seems to be
worthwhile for moderate climbs, which there are few of on my loop.
Anything flat or slightly up and double-poling is the only thing I can
do to keep the speed up. Sometimes double-pole and a kick, double-pole
kick, etc. Then the climbs get steep and my strides become very short
and fast. I feels like I am always either doing short fast uphill
strides, downhill tucks, or double-poling. Does this indicate some
defficency in my striding technique, or is it just a consequence of my
size and the terrain?

On steep climbs, is it best to try to keep the strides long and less
frequent as long as possible, or should I "gear down" as soon as I can?

Joseph

Cool. Classic is fun to figure out.

Double Pole is top gear for top speed, yes.

Kick DP (KDP) is middle gear, and by the way, is almost like
freewheeling so you don't lose too much speed if you are on a flat &
need a little changeup from DPing, try KDP for a couple strokes to
relax a little bit.

Striding is really only useful on the moderate uphills, but the better
technique that you can develop, the steeper you can stride. Striding
is lots faster than the technique of "Last Resort" which is
herringbone. Stride as much of the hill as you can before resorting to
h'bone, which has no glide & that is the difference.

CL vs FS
Most proficient striders can match or exceed the pace of a skater up
certain hills, when the skater is V1ing he is skating sideways each
stroke while the striding skier is moving her skis straight up the
hill. I would say that we could look at your SKATING technique if you
really want to get technical in the comparison because you should be
able to V2 much faster than you can DP, in general. In certain terrain
& certain conditions, I'm not surprised that you can match you skating
speed on classic gear. The top skiers are about 10% faster in skating
than striding.

Just keep doing what you are doing, and do Pete Vordenberg's No Pole
Striding Drills, and have fun @ the Norwegian Birkie ! You are doing
just fine if you can match your skating pace. Allow yourself to have a
good bit of confidence about it. That means a lot.

delltodd wrote:
Cool. Classic is fun to figure out.

Double Pole is top gear for top speed, yes.

Kick DP (KDP) is middle gear, and by the way, is almost like
freewheeling so you don't lose too much speed if you are on a flat &
need a little changeup from DPing, try KDP for a couple strokes to
relax a little bit.

Striding is really only useful on the moderate uphills, but the better
technique that you can develop, the steeper you can stride. Striding
is lots faster than the technique of "Last Resort" which is
herringbone. Stride as much of the hill as you can before resorting to
h'bone, which has no glide & that is the difference.

The problem I have is calibrating myself for when to call it quits on
striding. Even if it is possible to stride uphill with enough speed to
glide a bit, sometime it feels like it is too much effort. I may be I
need more variation in my terrain while I explore my technique.

CL vs FS
Most proficient striders can match or exceed the pace of a skater up
certain hills, when the skater is V1ing he is skating sideways each
stroke while the striding skier is moving her skis straight up the
hill. I would say that we could look at your SKATING technique if you
really want to get technical in the comparison because you should be
able to V2 much faster than you can DP, in general. In certain terrain
& certain conditions, I'm not surprised that you can match you skating
speed on classic gear. The top skiers are about 10% faster in skating
than striding.

Skating seems faster under all conditions, except steep climbs. I lose
lots of time on the steep climbs. I have good leg strength and I try to
extend my leg all the way, and my foot, and I think I get a good rhythm
going, but 100kg up steep hills is hard. Classic I can always worst
case jog up the steep hills, but skate I struggle to keep skating and
have any glide at all. What is V1 and V2? I can always skate faster
than I can DP, but it certainly "costs" more to do it. I never have to
resort to DP-ing while out skating.

Just keep doing what you are doing, and do Pete Vordenberg's No Pole
Striding Drills, and have fun @ the Norwegian Birkie ! You are doing
just fine if you can match your skating pace. Allow yourself to have a
good bit of confidence about it. That means a lot.

I have done a bit of no-pole striding. I was dicey up the steep
sections, and I clobbered my knee good when my ski slipped and I went
down onto the edge of the ski, but I think I do pretty well without
poles. I have pretty good balance from speed-skating and cycling. What
do no-pole drills accomplish?

Joseph

When to switch from striding to herringbone is a matter of feel at that
moment, taking into consideration factors like steepenss, how your
wax is working, condition of the tracks, how you are feeling, and if
there are other skiers ahead (or behind) that might force a change.
Changes are best to do with momentum, rather than waiting until you bog
down. Sometimes 'boning up the trail is faster than striding.
Judgment will come with experience. One thing we've raised before is
not to charge the hill, but rather to pick up the tempo to that which
will carry you up the hill a couple "strides" before getting there and
then carry it over the top into the next technique (k-dp or dp).

Gene

wrote:

The problem I have is calibrating myself for when to call it quits on
striding. Even if it is possible to stride uphill with enough speed to
glide a bit, sometime it feels like it is too much effort. I may be I
need more variation in my terrain while I explore my technique.

I have pretty good balance from speed-skating and cycling. What
do no-pole drills accomplish?

Joseph

Establishing proper body position for "kick"- balance and timing.

Gary Jacobson
Rosendale, NY

Gene Goldenfeld wrote:
When to switch from striding to herringbone is a matter of feel at that
moment, taking into consideration factors like steepenss, how your
wax is working, condition of the tracks, how you are feeling, and if
there are other skiers ahead (or behind) that might force a change.
Changes are best to do with momentum, rather than waiting until you bog
down. Sometimes 'boning up the trail is faster than striding.
Judgment will come with experience. One thing we've raised before is
not to charge the hill, but rather to pick up the tempo to that which
will carry you up the hill a couple "strides" before getting there and
then carry it over the top into the next technique (k-dp or dp).

Gene

I only switch to herringbone or the less extreme slightly splayed
"jogging" variant when I run out of grip in the tracks. If I have the
grip, I stay in the tracks, and as it gets steeper, I go from a long
stride with a glide, to a short stride with no glide. It's how long to
force the glide type stride before switching to the shorter non-glide
stride. It feels like I am doing it as fast as I can, but maybe that is
just a perception. Is longer slower strides with a glide more efficient
than shorter faster ones on steep climbs, even if it means pushing it
over the limit?

Joseph


wrote:

The problem I have is calibrating myself for when to call it quits on
striding. Even if it is possible to stride uphill with enough speed to
glide a bit, sometime it feels like it is too much effort. I may be I
need more variation in my terrain while I explore my technique.

If you watch the WC racers, they also switch to short, quick strides.
That's good you're doing that. But they don't normally go as fast as
possible. The comment about tempo applies here, especially for a
citizen skier. When to make the switch and when to jump out of the
tracks is a matter of feel and purpose and the other variables I
mentioned. Forcing it for long takes more energy and is more
disruptive to cadence than just jumping out of the tracks. Experience
will help you there.

Gene

wrote:


Gene Goldenfeld wrote:
When to switch from striding to herringbone is a matter of feel at
that moment, taking into consideration factors like steepenss, how
your wax is working, condition of the tracks, how you are feeling,
and if there are other skiers ahead (or behind) that might force a
change. Changes are best to do with momentum, rather than waiting
until you bog down. Sometimes 'boning up the trail is faster than
striding. Judgment will come with experience. One thing we've
raised before is not to charge the hill, but rather to pick up the
tempo to that which will carry you up the hill a couple "strides"
before getting there and then carry it over the top into the next
technique (k-dp or dp).

Gene

I only switch to herringbone or the less extreme slightly splayed
"jogging" variant when I run out of grip in the tracks. If I have the
grip, I stay in the tracks, and as it gets steeper, I go from a long
stride with a glide, to a short stride with no glide. It's how long to
force the glide type stride before switching to the shorter non-glide
stride. It feels like I am doing it as fast as I can, but maybe that
is just a perception. Is longer slower strides with a glide more
efficient than shorter faster ones on steep climbs, even if it means
pushing it over the limit?

Joseph

gary jacobson wrote:
I have pretty good balance from speed-skating and cycling. What
do no-pole drills accomplish?

Joseph

Establishing proper body position for "kick"- balance and timing.

Gary Jacobson
Rosendale, NY

Absolutely. I think that practicing proper kick double pole is one of
the best exercises to improve both classic and V2 skating. The balance
and pole timing on V2 is the same as kick double pole. I recommend a
supervised/coached lesson because it's critical to do it right.

Camilo wrote:
gary jacobson wrote:
I have pretty good balance from speed-skating and cycling. What
do no-pole drills accomplish?

Joseph

Establishing proper body position for "kick"- balance and timing.

Gary Jacobson
Rosendale, NY

Absolutely. I think that practicing proper kick double pole is one of
the best exercises to improve both classic and V2 skating. The balance
and pole timing on V2 is the same as kick double pole. I recommend a
supervised/coached lesson because it's critical to do it right.

What is V1 and V2?

I haven't been able to find a place around here for lessons. There are
some in Oslo but that is a 2 hour drive each way. Everyone except me
was born with skis on their feet. I have asked other skiers for tips,
but it was the same with speed skating I took up late in life: adults
who have been doing it since they were kids are not really able to
explain what it is they are doing.

There are clinics and things like that, but they are for kids.

Joseph

Sounds like you're getting good advice
about the 'stride-herringbone transition',
Joseph, and that's important in general.
But for the Birken itself,
it happens not to be at all important.
Except for two quite short pitches on that
final long climb up to the flat section to Susjoen,
none of the uphill is anywhere close to needing herringbone.

It's actually the 'kickDP-stride transition' that will come into play
often, but that's not a big deal. Even in very fast conditions (though
my skis were not so great) in 2002, I was not able to kickDP much
of the three long climbs (totalling nearly 30km I believe). It was
a WC race that year, and would have been very interesting to know
just what percentage of it Alsgaard would have kickDPed.

Try to remember and let us know on that point.
And good luck in the race.
Your intelligent questions and comments have made it into
a matter of considerable interest, to me at least.
I always check the results anyway,
because I use it to calibrate an age-handicapping
system for the Ontario masters.

Best, Peter