why hardboots?

"Jason Watkins" wrote

What stands out to me after trying them again now is _response_.
...
And there's clearly much more edging ability.
...
perfer for all around riding... but I can feel now how much potential
hardboots offer.
...
the description of what you like, it might be worth it for you to try
the hardboots.

Well, I guess that's the last nail in the coffin of my softboots

Now, it looks like there's no way of trying those hardboots on before
buying - the only place to get them from is the Net. What would be
the preferred brand for really really skinny feet and ankles?

What would be
the preferred brand for really really skinny feet and ankles?

Raichle/Deeluxe is good for a narrow fit. I have C width feet with skinny,
bony ankles and I use the SB 325. Previous years' models were sold under
the Raichle name, this years' models are sold under the Deeluxe name.

The following series of models are all roughly equivalent:

Raichle AF 700, Deeluxe Indy (top end racing boot)
Raichle AF 600, Deeluxe Suzuka (high -end racing/freecarve)
Raichle SB 125, 225, 325 (the old-gen high-end racing/freecarve boot)
Raichle SB 124, 224, 324, 423, Deeluxe LeMans (freecarve boot w/ 5 position
forward lean)
Raichle SB 123, 223, 323, 413, Deeluxe Spa (freecarve boot w/ 1-position fwd
lean)

You can make a x25 series behave like a x24 series and vice-versa simply by
switching the tongues. There might be small differences in shell stiffness
but most of the diufference comes from the tongues. .

There were other models way back when, mostly three-buckle boots...

The "SB" series / Deeluxe LeMans / DeeLuxe Spa has a narrower fit than the
AF series supposedly. I've never tried on an AF series but the opinion
seems pretty universal on Bomber.

If you have really small feet (mondopoint 22.5 - 23) then look into this one
for $50.00:

http://www.bomberonline.com/Store/bo...hle_sb_225.cfm

In the western hemisphere you can also get UPDS and Head boots, and leftover
Burtons from www.klugriding.com... I *think* they all fit wider feet better
though.


Hope that helps-

-Mike T

Where do you ride? Hood? I'm just trying to find out what is really
ment by "steep" here (and maybe also try to hook up with you some day -
riding with people who are better than you are is the best way to improve
skills ).

Yep, Hood - generally Meadows when it's open and Timberline otherwise.

As far as what "steep" means...

laying trenches on a GS board down two bowl or the Face at MHM when it's no
hero snow is enough to impress me. Those trails are never groomed on Hero
Snow days so they are too steep for me right now

I bet I'm no better a rider than you are Dmitry, we're probably just better
at different things. I *suck suck suck suck* at the halfpipe for example.
(Not that I've spent much time there)

There are two types of steeps that can be carved.
Black runs that were groomed, and really steep ones that are so steep
it's impossible to form moguls there, so the snow is pretty even.
Sometimes you can find a spot like this on the side of a black run
with moguls that is particularly steep or inconvinient to get to by
skiers.
I was refering to the second case, which is what I'm working on now.

On runs like that I find the snow is usually too deep to apply strict
"groomed trail carving techniques" although I try to let as much of my
groomer technqiue carry over as I can. Also I tend to exaggerate weighting
and unweighting in order to get the board to come around faster... unless
I'm on something like Lower Heather Canyon at MHM when I go back to big wide
open turns. I can rail turns on that when it's smooth windpack - happens
about twice a year.

I guess that's where hard boots and alpine
board come in, with much longer effective edge and more precise control.

Yep!

I still doubt any board can allow putting it way up on the edge and
leaning into the turn on plain ice. Well, maybe a GS board can, but it's
too specialized to be useful for riding anything but GS-like terrain.

Absolutely! Even among alpine boards some are better at ice than others.
My Coiler PR 184 *excels* in this department. It's like riding in better
conditions than everyone else is

I guess my problem with carving is that first of all, you spend much less
time doing something on the slope compared to sitting on the lift, then
that it seems like equipment that is good for riding more extreme terrain
is not very good for carving, and that I can't really enjoy it all day.
Need to vary and ride different types of terrain to keep aggression levels
high.

You're right about the equipment being more specific. Many hard-booters
bring more than one board to the mountain. I usually ride my GS board in
the AM, and then if I stick around after lunch time, go to an all-mountain
alpine board. On powder days I do the all-mtn board all day or ride
softies.

Mike T

Well, I guess that's the last nail in the coffin of my softboots

Now, it looks like there's no way of trying those hardboots on before
buying - the only place to get them from is the Net. What would be
the preferred brand for really really skinny feet and ankles?

Well, near as I can tell, there's 3 brands widely available:
Raichle/Deeluxe, Head and UPS. UPS has had some manufacturing problems
this season, so they likely won't be available till the fall. I talked
to a lady that uses the Head boots, and she said they fit her skinny
ankles quite well. I wasn't able to locate anyone that had the softer
freeride models available, and I don't think the stiffer race oriented
boots would fit my weight and riding style.

So, in the end I got a pair of Raichle 413's from www.bomberonline.com
for $200. The 413's are the older Raichle brand version of Deeluxe's
freeride boot: the Le Mans. They only come with a single forward lean
position, but for another $20 or so you can buy the 5 position lean
mechanism and put them on. Flexing in the forward direction (to the
toes) they really arn't that much stiffer than my salomon malamutes...
but they're *much* stiffer flexing sideways... with the more forward
stance you use with hardboots, that gives a ton of leverage on the
edge.

I have skinny little chicken leg ankles as well. Right now no matter
how I tighten the boots, there's at least a centimeter gap between the
top of the cuff and my shin/calf. I have some thermo fit liners that I
believe should take care of that problem... if you're like me, you'd
like need to do the same.

Baka Dasai wrote in message ...

When I originally said that the pipes and parks were empty, I was
referring to mid-week. On the weekends they are quite crowded, and as
you said, it's with silly once-a-year people who seem to be doing
jumps/rails mostly as a dare, or as fodder for their friend's amusement.


I see... but that doesn't really tell us much does it?

It's not the fact that the sport is sold with a fantasy, it's the nature
of that fantasy. Why doesn't the fantasy include people railing turns
down steep icy groomers, or even in powder?

I put this out for the mere purpose of debate. Would you believe that
the "fantasy" doesn't include people railing turns down icy groomers
because most people don't consider that fun. The advertising isn't
geared towards it because people (that is to say males between the
ages 8-30) don't care about carving...

Your right, in that many (most?) people prefer to cruise around the
mountain in an upright, gentle manner. I haven't seen much hard boot
advocacy aimed at them. It's the expert soft-boot carvers (a
significant proportion of mid-week riders that I see) that are the focus
of the advocacy.

I agree, but how many people is that? That's must be no more than like
1-2% of the snowboarding population... why would anyone pay thousands
of dollars on tv and magazine ads for such a small niche. I'm taking
your comments in conjunction with that of Phil's comments (which you
replied and agreed to) in which he claimed that the majority of
snowboarders are not freestylers. My counter-argument was that even
less snowboarders are carvers and hence it would be even less
reasonable (on a business level) to advertise to alpine riders. I'm
relatively new to hardboots, but from what I've seen, several highly
respected and even less respect companies have either dropped their
alpine models, or gone out of business due to the lack of sufficient
sales. I take that to mean that hardbooters are quickly becoming an
endangered species mainly because the activity is not popular with the
masses. That is to say, there is little advertising because there is
little interest, and not the other way around as Phil suggested.

Again that's not to say I would not love for alpine boards and
hardbooters to rebound in popularity. My point is that people are
incorrectly blaming the decline of alpine snowboarding on snowboard
companies and resorts (they would do so if there was a profit to be
made) when the true reason is that many people (perhaps wrongly) don't
like to carve.

"Dmitry" wrote in message news:IUT4c.3866$JL2.108716@attbi_s03...
"Baka Dasai" wrote

Steep icy groomers don't exist. Snowcat won't go up a slope of 50 degrees.
If you've seen some, please LMK where, I'd be very much interested.

I use google to read the newsgroup and it doesn't always show me all
the posts so I don't know if someone told you this yet... so
anyways... many resorts groomed steeps by having their Snowcats
lowered down with a winch. It's kind scary to think about it, but I've
seen it done.

Dmitry wrote:
"Neil Gendzwill" wrote

When I rode hardboots on a freeride board (25 cm waist), I used 35
degree angles. Now that I'm on an all-mountain board, it's 45. You
don't have to go to a narrower waist, but you should absolutely go to
steeper angles. Unless you're already at 30 plus in softies.


But.. Why? To be able to ride with the shoulders pointing downhill?

Partly, although I don't point my shoulders downhill, they're lined up
with my binding angles - straight downhill would be too rotated. A more
forward-facing stance is a big advantage anytime you want to make tight,
quick turns, like on a bump run. It lets you do more with just your
legs without having to involve your whole upper body.

Another advantage is to be able to get your ass to pressure the edge on
a heelside. If you ride flat angles, toesides are OK but on heelside
you have your ass hanging off the side. We call this "sitting on the
toilet". With higher angles, you get your butt more over the edge which
means your bodyweight is pressuring the edge more, thus you trench better.

A third advantage is that higher angles let you ride a narrower board.
You don't have to go narrower, but if you do you'll find the edge to
edge quickness that results from dumping 4 or 5 cm of width on the board
to be pretty cool.

I believe you already saw Jason's post on the responsiveness and power
hardboots bring to your riding. That was a big reason why I switched -
I could never get my softies to work responsively enough, and my feet
were killing me from having the straps as tight as I wanted. I suspect
modern softboot setups are much better, I haven't ridden softies since
around 1990. But people like Jason tell me that it hasn't changed so
much that I'm tempted to go back.

Neil

Arvin Chang wrote:

Baka Dasai wrote in message ...

Your right, in that many (most?) people prefer to cruise around the
mountain in an upright, gentle manner. I haven't seen much hard boot
advocacy aimed at them. It's the expert soft-boot carvers (a
significant proportion of mid-week riders that I see) that are the focus
of the advocacy.

My point is that people are
incorrectly blaming the decline of alpine snowboarding on snowboard
companies and resorts (they would do so if there was a profit to be
made) when the true reason is that many people (perhaps wrongly) don't
like to carve.

I would replace "don't like" with "can't". I think many people would
like to carve. The ski industry has had a huge resurgence with shaped
skis based on that very marketing point. I think if people were
educated to understand that they could more easily carve with an
equipment and stance change, they would want to.

BTW Baka makes a strong point for carving he
http://www.geocities.jp/costbeck//snow/cb_carving.mpg

Nice work!

Neil

Neil Gendzwill wrote in message ...
Arvin Chang wrote:

Baka Dasai wrote in message ...

Your right, in that many (most?) people prefer to cruise around the
mountain in an upright, gentle manner. I haven't seen much hard boot
advocacy aimed at them. It's the expert soft-boot carvers (a
significant proportion of mid-week riders that I see) that are the focus
of the advocacy.

My point is that people are
incorrectly blaming the decline of alpine snowboarding on snowboard
companies and resorts (they would do so if there was a profit to be
made) when the true reason is that many people (perhaps wrongly) don't
like to carve.

I would replace "don't like" with "can't". I think many people would
like to carve. The ski industry has had a huge resurgence with shaped
skis based on that very marketing point. I think if people were
educated to understand that they could more easily carve with an
equipment and stance change, they would want to.

No, that's my point, that hardbooters believe that many people will be
immediately converted the moment they see a hardbooter digging deep
trenches (as seen by your posting of Baka Dasai's carving clip). I
definitely agree that some people will be intrigued by alpine boards
and hardbooters due to their superior power and response in carvers.
This was how I myself entered into the world of alpine setups.

I just don't see it catching fire among the majority of the
snowboarding populace. Even with an alpine setup and hardbooters, it
still takes a decent time commitment to learn how to carve on an
alpine setup... at least 4-5 days (my guess) - nearly a full season
for most people. My main point is that people don't want to spend that
much time to learn how to do something, I agree it is sad and should
be changed, but this is how things are. With limited practice and
instruction, a person is going skid no matter what gear they are
riding.

Are you saying that you think complete beginner will choose chose
alpine setups over freestyle setups when presented the option. Or are
you claiming that a beginner/intermediate snowboarder (most common
level of ability) would jump at the chance to switch to alpine setups
when told about their advantages and disadvantages. Perhaps you are
more optimistic about the average person's learning curve... but again
my thinking is that if a person isn't willing to practice and learn to
even be able to do the simpliest of wide carved turns in softboots, do
you think they are going to spend even more time to learn how to
carved deep, tight turns in hardboots?

Just my thoughts

Arvin Chang wrote:

Are you saying that you think complete beginner will choose chose
alpine setups over freestyle setups when presented the option. Or are
you claiming that a beginner/intermediate snowboarder (most common
level of ability) would jump at the chance to switch to alpine setups
when told about their advantages and disadvantages.

Neither. I'm saying that a stiffer setup and more forward angles would
help most people ride better for what they do. Hard or soft doesn't
matter to me, I just don't buy a freestyle board, flexy boots and duck
stance for the recreational rider. There's no reason to ride straight
stances unless you want to ride switch. All they do for recreational
riders is make it easier to skid down the hill on their heels. The
recreational skier isn't putting on a pair of twin-tips and hitting the
park, why should that be the marketing focus for recreational riders?
Ski magazines are full of tips for skiers to learn how to turn better
and handle mountain conditions better. Why do snowboarding magazines
have tips on how to do a rodeo 5?

Neil