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#21
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Is my heel dragging the snow?
David Taylor wrote:
On 2006-12-26, wrote: Bob F wrote: This technique works well, especially at low speed. Sure, at high speeds anyone can change edges evenly to make quick non-skidded turns without pushing the tail of the board around. Using board torsion allows smooth turns without skidding even at near zero speeds. Focusing on it when riding switch makes switch riding much more comfortable. You just don't catch edges and fall as much. I will say again - I teach this technique to all my beginning students. It works very well for them. When it doesn't seem to work for them, they usually have their bindings too close together on the board. Move the bindings, and all of a sudden it works. The students that learn this way to turn are visably smoother riders. They also seem to suffer many fewer traumatic falls during the learning process. If you like the way you ride - fine. If you want to try something a lot of riders have never discovered that might improve your performance, you might want to try this. I have no vested interest other than liking to help people ride better. And I am always interested in any new concepts that I can learn, which is one of the reasons I visit R.S.S. Keep them coming. I'd be interested in hearing from others on here if: 1 - When learning to ride, they were told to make turns by twisting the board by moving the feet in opposite direction Yes. 2 - If they now use this technique in their own riding. Yes My answer is no to both. I'd be interested to know if you actually understand the technique being discussed. It's not so much moving the feet in opposite directions. You start with pressure on the heel edge on both feet. Then release the pressure on the heel edge on your front foot, and apply pressure to the toe edge on your front foot. As the board begins to turn, do the same with your back foot. All you're doing is turning with the front of the board first. 1. I have heard of this suggestion, but I wasn't told it while learning to ride. One very good instructor (AASII III, PSIA III, CASI Race II) told me at a race camp I attended that it is a useful technique if you board is not very torsionally rigid, but not the most effective for the stiff decks that Neil G, Mike T, I and many others ride and hence is probably why we don't use it very much. It is ONE of many technique he uses to teach - for those of with a preference for carving, we work more on edge pressure. === Quoted from someone ==================== OK, I'll give it a shot: There are 4 things you can do to a snowboard: Pivot it, pressure it, edge it and, yes, twist it. Since many of the alpine focused decks are pretty stiff torsionally, the twisting concept is pretty minimal. However, if you ride fairly flat angles and a relatively soft board like a 4X4/AWD/Axis, then you can actually twist the board to initiate a turn. Think about pressing down with your front set of toes first to start a toeside turn, then following up with by pressing the back toes down to finish and you have the concept. This is best accomplished on a long mellow run as you will have to wait a while (read- time it with a calendar) to allow your average alpine board to gradually edge into a turn. This is a much more applicable discussion in the freestyle, boards that are as flexible as a french fry. Nevertheless, it is a valid topic. I say this because I teach the "twisty" method of turn initiation to the french fry crowd. BTW, I do it on my Axis. ========================================= 2. Not really. At least I don't visualize that way. I visualize it more like David does - although I actually pressure the front edge of the board first (not both feet). Anyways, so David know the technique you describe it actually different from Bob F's description. He really means twist. Bob's mentioned that he hasn't had much instructor training outside of the PSIA and each instructor group has it's own "school of teaching" in which they believe to be superior to all other "schools of thought." I'm sure Bob would have a fit with the SBSS school of teaching that advocates a rotational style (http://www.extremecarving.com/tech/tech.html). I'm not even sure if I would teach that to my students either. For a note to the some of members of the forum. We value your input greatly, but you don't need to continually try to convince us of your street cred and consequently your worth as a contributor. You don't need to tell me how many boards you've sold to happy customers, or how many of your students have suddenly "got it" with your help. To me that's reminds me of one of the Real Men of Genius commercials by Bud Light. Listen here (http://tinyurl.com/j5axj). Let your thoughts stand on their own merits. |
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#22
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Is my heel dragging the snow?
"lonerider" wrote in message ups.com... David Taylor wrote: On 2006-12-26, wrote: Bob F wrote: This technique works well, especially at low speed. Sure, at high speeds anyone can change edges evenly to make quick non-skidded turns without pushing the tail of the board around. Using board torsion allows smooth turns without skidding even at near zero speeds. Focusing on it when riding switch makes switch riding much more comfortable. You just don't catch edges and fall as much. I will say again - I teach this technique to all my beginning students. It works very well for them. When it doesn't seem to work for them, they usually have their bindings too close together on the board. Move the bindings, and all of a sudden it works. The students that learn this way to turn are visably smoother riders. They also seem to suffer many fewer traumatic falls during the learning process. If you like the way you ride - fine. If you want to try something a lot of riders have never discovered that might improve your performance, you might want to try this. I have no vested interest other than liking to help people ride better. And I am always interested in any new concepts that I can learn, which is one of the reasons I visit R.S.S. Keep them coming. I'd be interested in hearing from others on here if: 1 - When learning to ride, they were told to make turns by twisting the board by moving the feet in opposite direction Yes. 2 - If they now use this technique in their own riding. Yes My answer is no to both. I'd be interested to know if you actually understand the technique being discussed. It's not so much moving the feet in opposite directions. You start with pressure on the heel edge on both feet. Then release the pressure on the heel edge on your front foot, and apply pressure to the toe edge on your front foot. As the board begins to turn, do the same with your back foot. All you're doing is turning with the front of the board first. 1. I have heard of this suggestion, but I wasn't told it while learning to ride. One very good instructor (AASII III, PSIA III, CASI Race II) told me at a race camp I attended that it is a useful technique if you board is not very torsionally rigid, but not the most effective for the stiff decks that Neil G, Mike T, I and many others ride and hence is probably why we don't use it very much. It is ONE of many technique he uses to teach - for those of with a preference for carving, we work more on edge pressure. === Quoted from someone ==================== OK, I'll give it a shot: There are 4 things you can do to a snowboard: Pivot it, pressure it, edge it and, yes, twist it. Since many of the alpine focused decks are pretty stiff torsionally, the twisting concept is pretty minimal. However, if you ride fairly flat angles and a relatively soft board like a 4X4/AWD/Axis, then you can actually twist the board to initiate a turn. Think about pressing down with your front set of toes first to start a toeside turn, then following up with by pressing the back toes down to finish and you have the concept. This is best accomplished on a long mellow run as you will have to wait a while (read- time it with a calendar) to allow your average alpine board to gradually edge into a turn. This is a much more applicable discussion in the freestyle, boards that are as flexible as a french fry. Nevertheless, it is a valid topic. I say this because I teach the "twisty" method of turn initiation to the french fry crowd. BTW, I do it on my Axis. ========================================= 2. Not really. At least I don't visualize that way. I visualize it more like David does - although I actually pressure the front edge of the board first (not both feet). Anyways, so David know the technique you describe it actually different from Bob F's description. He really means twist. Bob's mentioned that he hasn't had much instructor training outside of the PSIA and each instructor group has it's own "school of teaching" in which they believe to be superior to all other "schools of thought." I'm sure Bob would have a fit with the SBSS school of teaching that advocates a rotational style (http://www.extremecarving.com/tech/tech.html). I'm not even sure if I would teach that to my students either. For a note to the some of members of the forum. We value your input greatly, but you don't need to continually try to convince us of your street cred and consequently your worth as a contributor. You don't need to tell me how many boards you've sold to happy customers, or how many of your students have suddenly "got it" with your help. To me that's reminds me of one of the Real Men of Genius commercials by Bud Light. Listen here (http://tinyurl.com/j5axj). Let your thoughts stand on their own merits. Nice addition to the discussion. You are right about the "extreemcarving" turning style. It is very different from what I have been taught. The body rotation seen in their videos is almost eliminated the way I have learned recently. It is, as I remember, what I was taught a couple decades ago, and the way I was trying to ride before I talked my way into the snowboard instructor clinics a few years ago instead of the ski clinics I had done earlier. Once I learned the newer technique, I found my confidence increased rapidly, as I could turn when I wanted much more reliably. That is why I bring it up when someone expresses questions with their turning technique. Enough said. Bob |
#23
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Is my heel dragging the snow?
1 - When learning to ride, they were told to make turns by twisting the
board by moving the feet in opposite direction Like Lonerider I heard about that technique after having ridden for a number of years and having had quite a bit of instruction. I heard it from the same source he did as well as from the head snowboard instructor at Timberline. 2 - If they now use this technique in their own riding. I've played with it some, both in hard and soft boots and soft (in both cases, on softer boards for the given application). For me it's most applicable for turning in deep mashed potatoes where you can't really carve and you can't really slide either. But I don't use it for my everyday riding as I tend to be either carving or enjoying the freshies :-) Mike T ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
#24
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Is my heel dragging the snow?
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#25
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Is my heel dragging the snow?
"Jeremy" wrote in message ... The result: Twisting didn't work for me. The best I could manage was a slightly staccato version of rolling from edge to edge, and back to front releasing one turn and starting the next. Applying force to the front half of the board resulted in peeling off the pressure on the opposite edge of the rear half before the new inside edge made noteworthy snow contact. Contact with the "new" front edge is not made before the "old" rear edge releases. The twist of the front of the board merely releases the uphill edge at the front of the board, allowing it to start turning downhill while the rear of the board does not. As the turn progresses, the rear edge follows the front and pressure equalizes. The best way to see this is to try it at very low speed on a bunny slope traverse. Twist the front of the board and wait. The board will start to turn with no other body motion. Bob |
#26
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Is my heel dragging the snow?
Bob F wrote:
"Jeremy" wrote in message ... The result: Twisting didn't work for me. The best I could manage was a slightly staccato version of rolling from edge to edge, and back to front releasing one turn and starting the next. Applying force to the front half of the board resulted in peeling off the pressure on the opposite edge of the rear half before the new inside edge made noteworthy snow contact. Contact with the "new" front edge is not made before the "old" rear edge releases. The twist of the front of the board merely releases the uphill edge at the front of the board, allowing it to start turning downhill while the rear of the board does not. As the turn progresses, the The front of the board turns while the rear does not? Taking that to an extreme leads to very funny pictures in my head. With a bit of balance and/or the right conditions, the front of the board can be completely off the snow while the rear maintains edge contact. Other than the flexing in three dimensions allowed by the board, both ends still turn in the same direction. Perhaps you mean that the board pivots around the rear, in which case both ends share angular rather than linear velocity, leading to a casual observation that one end is moving while the other stays put. The best way to see this is to try it at very low speed on a bunny slope traverse. Twist the front of the board and wait. The board will start to turn with no other body motion. I'm not saying that *attempting* to twist the board didn't result in a turn, but rather that I did not experience a satisfying turn as a result. My expectations may be a bit high for a technique aimed at someone trying to turn a board for the first time. |
#27
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Is my heel dragging the snow?
"Jeremy" wrote in message ... Bob F wrote: "Jeremy" wrote in message ... The result: Twisting didn't work for me. The best I could manage was a slightly staccato version of rolling from edge to edge, and back to front releasing one turn and starting the next. Applying force to the front half of the board resulted in peeling off the pressure on the opposite edge of the rear half before the new inside edge made noteworthy snow contact. Contact with the "new" front edge is not made before the "old" rear edge releases. The twist of the front of the board merely releases the uphill edge at the front of the board, allowing it to start turning downhill while the rear of the board does not. As the turn progresses, the The front of the board turns while the rear does not? Taking that to an extreme leads to very funny pictures in my head. With a bit of balance and/or the right conditions, the front of the board can be completely off the snow while the rear maintains edge contact. Other than the flexing in three dimensions allowed by the board, both ends still turn in the same direction. Perhaps you mean that the board pivots around the rear, in which case both ends share angular rather than linear velocity, leading to a casual observation that one end is moving while the other stays put. By releasing the edge on only the front of the board, the front of the board begins to slip down the hill, turning the board. The best way to see this is to try it at very low speed on a bunny slope traverse. Twist the front of the board and wait. The board will start to turn with no other body motion. I'm not saying that *attempting* to twist the board didn't result in a turn, but rather that I did not experience a satisfying turn as a result. My expectations may be a bit high for a technique aimed at someone trying to turn a board for the first time. It is aimed at someone trying to turn the first time, and continues to be useful as skill develops. Learning to use this, like any other technique, requires practice. I am still using it as I develop my skills in the steep/deep crud and the moguls. To me, it seems to significantly reduce the risk of catching my edges when trying to turn in difficult circumstances. It makes a huge difference for me when riding switch, for instance. I am certainly not trying to tell you you should turn this way, but if I can help a few people improve their capabilities by trying something new, I'll be pleased. Classes start Sat, so maybe I'll lose the desire to "teach" here. Bob |
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