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Silvretta 400 parts



 
 
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  #11  
Old August 4th 03, 09:57 PM
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In article ,
Greg wrote:


Jonathan Shefftz wrote:
The Silvretta 400/404/500/505/555 all lack a lateral release at the
toe (instead placing it at the heel). No recent alpine downhill
binding has ever lacked a lateral toe release. This strikes me as a
significant Silvretta disadvantage.


Not to mention that its a big pain in the but to put it back together after a
lateral release.


_ This is not true of the 500 series. They don't come apart like
the 400's.

_ Booker C. Bense


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  #12  
Old August 4th 03, 11:07 PM
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In article ,
Jonathan Shefftz wrote:
That is definitely the best and most-informed Silvretta defense I have
ever read.
Now back to the debate!
Although I’ve attended clinics from:
http://www.vermontskisafety.com/
... and read many articles on alpine downhill binding safety, I will
agree that I have no direct evidence that placing the lateral release
at the toe is superior to placing it at the heel.


_ Okay, got that one.

But given that *all* recent alpine downhill bindings have a lateral
toe release, and that very few bother with a lateral heel release
(despite having all sorts of other innovative features), my conclusion
is that a lateral toe release is a critical safety feature, while a
lateral heel release is not a significant advantage.


_ You're drawing some very spurious conclusions from very little
evidence. Alpine bindings are driven by marketing as much as
safety. A lateral heel release is not needed if you have toe
release, but you could never sell a binding that didn't have a
toe release so the point is moot. In fact if you think about it
a bit, you'll release that having both kinds of releases would
make the binding excessively complicated and make adjusting it
reliablely quite difficult.

_ Just because one set of design criteria leads to one class of
solutions does not mean that a different set of criteria have the
same solution.

Also, as I try
to envision it, the situation that a lateral release is trying to
solve arises from the boot and ski diverging - the heel is aligned w/
the shaft of the leg, so the pivoting occurs there, and lateral
pressure that the binding can sense occurs at the toe, not the heel.
(Think about hooking a tip on a branch, a la a slalom race course: the
Diamir toe will release laterally, but will the Silvretta heel release
laterally in that situation?)


_ Yes. The lever arm at the heel is shorter, but it will still
release.

I’ll agree that fixing crampons w/o exiting the binding is a
nifty feature - I’ve been in many situations where that would
have been a nice plus.
Standards for alpine touring bindings though exist just like standards
for alpine downhill bindings - you can order the DIN from that Euro
website (though it costs a non-negligible sum, so I haven’t
bothered yet).


_ There are DIN standards for the shape of the boot. There are no
standards for the release mechanisms. Read the fine print that
comes with your bindings.

As for the mode switch, I’ve played w/ it in shops, and it does
indeed appear to be a par w/ the Diamir.
Regarding durability, I heard some nightmare stories from these guys:
http://www.andesmountainsports.com/
...but that of course is just one step (barely) above anecdotal
evidence.


_ Of the old 404's or the newer 500's? The guys at
thebackcountry.net also have bad things to say about silvretta
that mostly have to do with the fact that the company is in
Germany. And if I owned a shop I would probably have the same
concerns. The whole liability problem with AT bindings should
make any shop owner a bit nervous. If you can't get clear
answers, then you don't want to take the risk of selling the
binding. Adjusting the 500's is a bit complicated[1], I know I
wouldn't do it for somebody that might sue me.

Overall, I still think that for those most concerned about weight,
Dynafit is the best choice; for climbing boot compatibility, Silvretta
500; everyone else, Diamir (or maybe the new Naxo).


_ Well, that's certainly the common wisdom, but your entire argument
boils down to

"Well, it looks like an alpine binding so it must be
safer."

It's a good marketing ploy, heck it may even be true, but I have
not seen anything that would prove it to me.

_ Booker C. Bense

[1]- The lateral release is dependent on getting the length of
the boot adjustment correct first. With a regular AT boot, this
is pretty straightforward, with a climbing boot you actually
have to ski in the boots a bit to get this adjustment correct.

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  #13  
Old August 4th 03, 11:28 PM
Clyde
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bbense+rec.skiing.backcountry.Aug.04.03@telemark. slac.stanford.edu
wrote:

_ You're drawing some very spurious conclusions from very little
evidence.


More to the point, the evidence points in the other direction. There
must be tens (hundreds?) of thousands of man-days on the Silvretta
design in the past two decades. Yet no rash of spiral fractures or blown
ACLs. You can bet your sweet-bippy that lawyers would have been all over
it if the binding were inherently unsafe. Silvretta has long argued
their design is safer because the pivot point is closer to the leg axis
so less knee torque.

And nobody pushing Fritchi should even be talking about past reliability
issues, puhleeze.
  #14  
Old August 5th 03, 04:18 PM
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In article ,
Jonathan Shefftz wrote:
I think this is becoming (if it hasn’t already become) the
definitive Silvretta-debate thread.



Andes commented negatively on both the 404 and 500/505, but
that’s just anecdotal. I’ve read thebackcountry.net
comments on Silvretta, but don’t give them much credence, as
they also claim the Diamir can’t be torque tested - the only
conceivable reason for this claim is that they don’t own a shop
torque tester, as a standard alpine downhill torque testers would work
just find for the Diamir.


_ Does Diamir claim this in their binding literature? I know that
Silvretta explictly states that you can't use a torque tester
reliably. Reliable binding testing only became a reality when
the boot manufacturers defined a precise standard for the boots
and bindings. A big part of this is the friction where the toe of
the boot rests on the binding. It's not clear to me that this is
standardized in any way with AT boots. Just because you can put
in a machine and get a number back doesn't mean that number is
repeatable.

_ I know the guys at Backcountry.net and have no reason to doubt
them when they make that claim. They may not have a torque
tester, but there is no shortage of them in the neighborhood. It
makes no sense for them to say that if it's not true. Heck if it
was true then much of your arguement that the diamir is safer
would hold more water.

The heel hold down mechanism is capable of mangling the plastic end of
the central rail, but always cleaning away any compressed snow/ice
before locking down into ski mode will prevent that.


_ This is one of the things I really like about the Silvretta
system you don't have to baby it in any way. If there's snow in
the heel piece, just stomp on it to clear it and away you go.

The only alpine
downhill or alpine touring binding I know of that is virtually
breakage-free is Dynafit.


_ Dynafit has had their problems as well. See Lou Dawson's page
on the Tri-step.

_ Booker C. Bense


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  #15  
Old August 6th 03, 09:19 PM
Jonathan Shefftz
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I don’t understand why a torque tester would not be valid on the
Diamir, since the whole point of the test is to determine whether the
digits on the binding setting really do correspond with decanewtons of
torque, correct? Now of course just because the binding releases
within the expected parameters in a shop setting does not mean it will
always perform properly on snow (i.e., exposed to complicated
combination loads and multiple contaminants), but that’s the
same problem with alpine downhill bindings, not just with the Diamir.
I did check some binding manuals: my Rossi alpine downhill race
bindings and Diamir II manuals never refer to testing the release
settings, just vaguely instruct the user to bring the bindings to a
specialized shop each year for inspection and readjustment. The Rossi
and Diamir manuals provide identical release setting charts. By
contrast, the original Diamir instructions were more lengthy (maybe
Fritschi wanted to cut back on paper costs in later years?!?), and
after explaining to the user how to select the correct value from the
setting chart, section 4.5 states, “Check of binding setting to
make sure that it is in acccordance with ISO standards: adjust if
necessary.” That sounds like a reference to a shop torque
tester to ensure that the #s match up with physical reality, but then
again something could be lost in the translation from the original
Swiss German.
Another tidbit: the Fritschi Rave alpine downhill binding uses the
same heel unit as the Diamir. The toe unit is somewhat different, but
has the same design of placing the release spring inside the central
rail.
The odd part about the DII/III/FR heel lockdown is that the original
Diamir had a design that was immune to such mangling. I don’t
see why Fritschi made such an “improvement” (unless they
had to pare down weight somewhere to offset the heavier central rail
on the DII).
Re Dynafit, I’m familiar with its many annoying inconveniences
(based both on Lou’s excellent website, other stories, and some
- unintentionally - hilarios stories from friends) and also long-term
wear issues, but I’ve never heard of a sudden breakage that
signficiantly impaired its functionality. I guess w/ so few moving
parts, there’s just not much to break!
  #16  
Old August 11th 03, 12:45 PM
Florian Anwander
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Hi Booker

do you mean this: http://www.telemark-easygo.com/ ?

_ Yes, that's exactly what I mean. In addition to getting a
better climbing mode, you also have a very easy to use
ski crampon available.

I did one testtour with a borrowed telemak-easygo and it is perfect.

Since it is sold out - as Ulrich mentioned - I started to try a diy
version. It bases on the frame of my old Silvretta 400. The heel piece is
removed, but I kept the small plate which provides the left/right motion of
the heel piece. The toe piece of the Silvretta is replaced by two metal
plates that enclose the the frame like a sandwich. On these metal plates I
will fix my 3G.

I did not finish it until now, but I hope to do this in the early
September.

Florian
 




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