Women's ski events: separate but equal?

OK, in the late 70's there were big ski event fields, with about, what,
a third ladies entered.

Then came skating and complex waxing and field sizes went down by half
and women's participation went down by, what, 80%.

Guesstimating numbers in my wanton and imaginative way, here's how it
seems to have played out:

NA Vasa 1980: 1500 total, 500 women.
NA Vasa 2000: 750 total, 50 women.

Maybe someone can dig up the real figures but that's how the culture
SEEMS to have changed.

Now we have a new trend, at least here in Michigan. There's a Women's
Ski Tour series of events, with high production values, posters,
brochures, ads, and a big emphasis on chocolate...

Participation?

What, a THOUSAND ladies per event? Or something like that. Huge success.

Separate but equal?

What's going on here?

I guess I see a place for things like women-only colleges. I mean, the
more the merrier. I can tolerate a little sexism. I'm generous.

I mean, there are plenty of events, businesses and associations that are
officially and legally Men Only, right? Plenty of places that women
aren't allowed, right?

Anyway, I'm fine with a certain fraction of exclusive projects.

But it seems like the dominant culture, the main event, should be
inclusive and "all humans allowed." --With the occasional special
project for exotic special interests, like quilting bees or darts
tournaments (hmmm, I *think* that mixing wouldn't be totally frowned on
at such events, but you know how they go). But the main thing is the
human race. Not the special segregation.

In cycling, I notice an increasing number of women's rides and clubs.
But there are still plenty of ladies at regular events. However, they're
not at the hammerhead A-ride, fast-group club events, except in a
1-in-20 ratio. Most ladies aren't as fast as the fast guys. But in the
C-rides, there are about half ladies still, which makes sense. ---And
they have the occasional women's tour on the side. No problem.

So how do we get the ladies to show up for plain old everyday regular XC
events in their normal population ratio?

It seems like running races and triathlons and even inline skate races
have a lot of women.

But XC events and bike races are shy on women.

Bike century rides have quite a few women still. I wonder if ski tours
like the Wabos Loppet at Stokely Creek still have their same old ratio
of women.

What if we had a 40k classic tour with fancy feed tables and lots of
chocolate...and wine...maybe wending thru the vineyard region near
Traverse City, MI. Not a race. Maybe the racing puts em off. (Doesn't
put em off in running or tri's, tho...) Is there a race associated with
these Women's Tours? I dunno. If there was, I can picture it having a
hundred or more ladies. ---But more than half of these ladies wouldn't
show, apparently, to a regular race. So something is going on.

Oh well, I suspect that these new separate-but-equal events are NOT THE
ANSWER.

I mean, I wish em all the fun on their outings. Sounds like a fine time.
I like chocolate, too. Women aren't excluded from other events. I'm a
bit peeved that I'm excluded from anything like this. Let it be called a
Women's Ski Tour if they like, but I think it should be open to
everyone. Uh, no, that just doesn't seem right. Well, let em have their
events, but the reality of how they are working out points out a PROBLEM
in the culture that we could deal with if we liked. Apparently (and
obviously) there are tons of ladies out there who like skiing, but they
just won't show up to the usual events. So: how to get them to
participate like normal adults? How to draw them out of their shell?

We discussed some of this stuff yesterday after the race. One ideas was
to have separate starts, maybe by a half hour, so that the men could go
out on the course and cheer the ladies in a couple places, then the
ladies could do likewise later on.

I think this also points up general spectating issues at XC races: there
should be INTERIOR trails packed for spectators, so that with a short
amount of tour-skiing you can scoot around and watch, say, a 20k race at
four places, by only skiing, say, 4k.

And yet another point came up: what to do about KIDS. --Have more kiddy
events.

If we don't start really investing in this stuff, we won't have a
holistic, healthy culture. Or maybe in sports separate but equal is
fine. We can do different events on different days for every distinct
age/gender group. Kinda like basketball? That would be a shame because,
well, there's no real reason for it. A trail is a trail. Maybe we need
to be more public and educational about trail manners so "we can all get
along"? I mean, that's what's neat about the silent sports: we can all
be out there together, at the same time, theoretically.

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of do-it-yourself culture ... bikes, skis, boats & more! ...

... offering Vordenberg's XC ski tales in "Momentum"! ...
... "The Recumbent Bicycle": the only book about these bikes! ...
... Rudloe's "Potluck": true-life story of workingclass smuggling! ...

... with radical novels coming up via LiteraryRevolution.com! ...
... music! ... articles! ... travel forums! ... WOW! 800-763-6923

Hey Jeff, If you ever figure out what makes women do anything, let the rest
of us men know.

Until then, we need women in responsible positions on race committees to
ensure that events are attractive and friendly to women.

At the FIS TD seminar in Calgary this past fall, none of the US
representatives were women and women were certainly under-represented (in
numbers, not ability) on the Canadian side.

Scott Elliot
http://www3.telus.net/selliot/

"Jeff Potter" wrote in message
.. .
OK, in the late 70's there were big ski event fields, with about, what,
a third ladies entered.

Then came skating and complex waxing and field sizes went down by half
and women's participation went down by, what, 80%.

Guesstimating numbers in my wanton and imaginative way, here's how it
seems to have played out:

NA Vasa 1980: 1500 total, 500 women.
NA Vasa 2000: 750 total, 50 women.

Maybe someone can dig up the real figures but that's how the culture
SEEMS to have changed.

Now we have a new trend, at least here in Michigan. There's a Women's
Ski Tour series of events, with high production values, posters,
brochures, ads, and a big emphasis on chocolate...

Participation?

What, a THOUSAND ladies per event? Or something like that. Huge success.

Separate but equal?

What's going on here?

I guess I see a place for things like women-only colleges. I mean, the
more the merrier. I can tolerate a little sexism. I'm generous.

I mean, there are plenty of events, businesses and associations that are
officially and legally Men Only, right? Plenty of places that women
aren't allowed, right?

Anyway, I'm fine with a certain fraction of exclusive projects.

But it seems like the dominant culture, the main event, should be
inclusive and "all humans allowed." --With the occasional special
project for exotic special interests, like quilting bees or darts
tournaments (hmmm, I *think* that mixing wouldn't be totally frowned on
at such events, but you know how they go). But the main thing is the
human race. Not the special segregation.

In cycling, I notice an increasing number of women's rides and clubs.
But there are still plenty of ladies at regular events. However, they're
not at the hammerhead A-ride, fast-group club events, except in a
1-in-20 ratio. Most ladies aren't as fast as the fast guys. But in the
C-rides, there are about half ladies still, which makes sense. ---And
they have the occasional women's tour on the side. No problem.

So how do we get the ladies to show up for plain old everyday regular XC
events in their normal population ratio?

It seems like running races and triathlons and even inline skate races
have a lot of women.

But XC events and bike races are shy on women.

Bike century rides have quite a few women still. I wonder if ski tours
like the Wabos Loppet at Stokely Creek still have their same old ratio
of women.

What if we had a 40k classic tour with fancy feed tables and lots of
chocolate...and wine...maybe wending thru the vineyard region near
Traverse City, MI. Not a race. Maybe the racing puts em off. (Doesn't
put em off in running or tri's, tho...) Is there a race associated with
these Women's Tours? I dunno. If there was, I can picture it having a
hundred or more ladies. ---But more than half of these ladies wouldn't
show, apparently, to a regular race. So something is going on.

Oh well, I suspect that these new separate-but-equal events are NOT THE
ANSWER.

I mean, I wish em all the fun on their outings. Sounds like a fine time.
I like chocolate, too. Women aren't excluded from other events. I'm a
bit peeved that I'm excluded from anything like this. Let it be called a
Women's Ski Tour if they like, but I think it should be open to
everyone. Uh, no, that just doesn't seem right. Well, let em have their
events, but the reality of how they are working out points out a PROBLEM
in the culture that we could deal with if we liked. Apparently (and
obviously) there are tons of ladies out there who like skiing, but they
just won't show up to the usual events. So: how to get them to
participate like normal adults? How to draw them out of their shell?

We discussed some of this stuff yesterday after the race. One ideas was
to have separate starts, maybe by a half hour, so that the men could go
out on the course and cheer the ladies in a couple places, then the
ladies could do likewise later on.

I think this also points up general spectating issues at XC races: there
should be INTERIOR trails packed for spectators, so that with a short
amount of tour-skiing you can scoot around and watch, say, a 20k race at
four places, by only skiing, say, 4k.

And yet another point came up: what to do about KIDS. --Have more kiddy
events.

If we don't start really investing in this stuff, we won't have a
holistic, healthy culture. Or maybe in sports separate but equal is
fine. We can do different events on different days for every distinct
age/gender group. Kinda like basketball? That would be a shame because,
well, there's no real reason for it. A trail is a trail. Maybe we need
to be more public and educational about trail manners so "we can all get
along"? I mean, that's what's neat about the silent sports: we can all
be out there together, at the same time, theoretically.

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of do-it-yourself culture ... bikes, skis, boats & more! ...

... offering Vordenberg's XC ski tales in "Momentum"! ...
... "The Recumbent Bicycle": the only book about these bikes! ...
... Rudloe's "Potluck": true-life story of workingclass smuggling! ...

... with radical novels coming up via LiteraryRevolution.com! ...
... music! ... articles! ... travel forums! ... WOW! 800-763-6923

Jeff Potter wrote:

OK, in the late 70's there were big ski event fields, with about, what,
a third ladies entered.

Then came skating and complex waxing and field sizes went down by half
and women's participation went down by, what, 80%.

Guesstimating numbers in my wanton and imaginative way, here's how it
seems to have played out:

NA Vasa 1980: 1500 total, 500 women.
NA Vasa 2000: 750 total, 50 women.

Maybe someone can dig up the real figures but that's how the culture
SEEMS to have changed.

Have you been watching NRK over the last weeks?

Anette Sagen and three other girls were finally allowed to jump in the
Vikersund 200+ m hill, as test jumpers before the regular competion,
after direct intervention of lots of institutions:

The local police chief: "Saying no to female jumpers constitute illegal
discrimation."

The prime minister.

FIS

The event organizers.

It seemed like the only opposition was in the form of Thorbjørn Yggeset,
the (Norwegian!) FIS technical chief of ski jumping.

When they were finally allowed to actually jump, three of them jumped
over 170 m, with no problems and good form. Even Yggeseth was willing to
admit that it seemed like they were capable.

Terje

--
-
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

Well, they USED to ski with us.

And the great and stylish Linda Kreft runs the Vasa lately. And maybe Kay
Krapohl ran it before her. I think there are quite a few ladies involved in US
XC---they just don't show for "mixed" events.

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of do-it-yourself culture ... bikes, skis, boats & more! ...
... offering Vordenberg's XC ski tales in "Momentum"! ...
... "The Recumbent Bicycle": the only book about these bikes! ...
... Rudloe's "Potluck": true-life story of workingclass smuggling! ...
... with radical novels coming up via LiteraryRevolution.com! ...
... music! ... articles! ... travel forums! ... WOW! 800-763-6923

I don't know about percentages, but it seems to me like
there are lots of women involved in xc ski racing in the
Twin Cities area. I agree that there are many fewer women
than men but I work in a very male dominated field (supercomputing)
and there's always alot more women at the races I do than
at the conferences I go to. I got to know almost all my
female friends through training for ski racing.

I think its good to have women-only events. My first ski event
was a women's only ski tour that Jan Gunther (Gear West)
organizes every year. It was a very welcoming environment,
which is helpful for getting women involved. The following
year I did regular co-ed races. I've also done women-only
road and mountain biking clinics. When there's something
that involves overcoming fear, either fear of failing, fear
of looking or feeling stupid or fear of getting hurt, its
*very* helpful to be in an all-womens group. After developing
a certain level of confidence I think most women are happy
to participate in co-ed races.

-Ilene


Jeff Potter wrote:

Well, they USED to ski with us.

And the great and stylish Linda Kreft runs the Vasa lately. And maybe Kay
Krapohl ran it before her. I think there are quite a few ladies involved in US
XC---they just don't show for "mixed" events.

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of do-it-yourself culture ... bikes, skis, boats & more! ...
... offering Vordenberg's XC ski tales in "Momentum"! ...
... "The Recumbent Bicycle": the only book about these bikes! ...
... Rudloe's "Potluck": true-life story of workingclass smuggling! ...
... with radical novels coming up via LiteraryRevolution.com! ...
... music! ... articles! ... travel forums! ... WOW! 800-763-6923

Ilene Carpenter wrote:

I don't know about percentages, but it seems to me like
there are lots of women involved in xc ski racing in the
Twin Cities area.

Maybe things get a bit more of a normal ratio in areas where XC is more socially
acceptable.

I think its good to have women-only events. My first ski event
was a women's only ski tour that Jan Gunther (Gear West)
organizes every year. It was a very welcoming environment,
which is helpful for getting women involved. The following
year I did regular co-ed races. I've also done women-only
road and mountain biking clinics. When there's something
that involves overcoming fear, either fear of failing, fear
of looking or feeling stupid or fear of getting hurt, its
*very* helpful to be in an all-womens group. After developing
a certain level of confidence I think most women are happy
to participate in co-ed races.

So it seems like we'd then see the scenario I mentioned of women-only clinics being
a feeder-system for the main culture. So you'd have say a dozen new women a year at
the women-only thing then as they got comfy they'd just do the regular events, so
the bulk of the ladies, being experienced, would be at the main events. I think
instead we're seeing a few at the main event and hundreds at the special segregated
events. Seems off.

I also have to note that "back in the day" there were no women-only clinics but
seemingly far greater amounts of women at the events. --Perhaps they weren't on the
competitive side of things. Maybe in the early days of XC even the races were
mostly comprised of those going out for a day of touring and relaxed fitness
exploration.

Note that intimidation is a very serious consideration for male event participation
as well. It might make approx equal populations of both genders hesitate or avoid
entering events. Not sure that more women hesitate to look a fool in public than
men. : )

Interestingly, this early period was also when feminism was at its peak and a huge
public men-critique was under way, yet the mixing seemed to be more common. Thus
back then women would perhaps have more likely been in a mindset conducive to
segregation, but they didn't do it.

Just mulling things over.

I'm thinking that a revival of classic loppets with good food, chocolate and wine
could do the trick. : )

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of do-it-yourself culture ... bikes, skis, boats & more! ...
... offering Vordenberg's XC ski tales in "Momentum"! ...
... "The Recumbent Bicycle": the only book about these bikes! ...
... Rudloe's "Potluck": true-life story of workingclass smuggling! ...
... with radical novels coming up via LiteraryRevolution.com! ...
... music! ... articles! ... travel forums! ... WOW! 800-763-6923

If there are 750 skiers in the traverse city, michigan subaru vasa,
and 50 of those are women, then about 650 guys need to get their wives
into ski racing somehow !

I tell you, men, this is the key to your ski racing future. It is much
better to experience all this fun with your spouse, instead of away
from your spouse. It then adds a multitude of understanding with your
year-round training, and then SHE starts to train too. It's all for
the better.

You have to want to be around your wife. Perhaps not everybody enjoys
their spouses company. (?)

We are blessed in that we have help from local grandparent who are
able & willing to help out with the kids. But, we are also able to
string together some race weekends with the kids by checking them into
daycare where provided at the races. We are also looking into bringing
along our kids' regular babysitter to the races this weekend. Sure,
you have to be creative, but if you both really want to race, you can
find a way to make it happen, at least some of the time.