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#1
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Are We Training Wrong?
There's a discussion about training methods going on... Check out:
www.fasterskier.com A Norwegian researcher, Ulrik Wisloff, claims most distance training is worthless and suggests mainly interval training. Any long distance training should be done at race speed. Vegard Ulvang weighs in and disputes his claims. Jay Tegeder "On the podium if the right people don't show up!" JT |
#2
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Are We Training Wrong?
Very interesting news! Thanks for pointing it out, Jay.
I talked with a woman who was a gold medalist (without drugs) for East Germany in biathlon. She told me that they did almost exclusively high intensity workouts with careful monitoring to make sure they were working hard enough and then that they rested to recover. She thought the idea of lot of long easy distance was ridiculous. She said the American men (a decade ago) were training "like 12 year old girls". Clearly there is more than one way to achieve excellence. I have a huge personal bias towards LSD training because it's what I'm good at and I'm bad at intervals. On the other hand, I know that I have my best races after I've done a bunch of races close together like a week at Natl Masters. I wonder what Carl Swenson's training year looks like? Maybe all that summer racing is the best preparation for winter racing. Rob B. --- Jay Tegeder wrote: There's a discussion about training methods going on... Check out: www.fasterskier.com A Norwegian researcher, Ulrik Wisloff, claims most distance training is worthless and suggests mainly interval training. Any long distance training should be done at race speed. Vegard Ulvang weighs in and disputes his claims. Jay Tegeder "On the podium if the right people don't show up!" JT ===== Rob Bradlee Java, C++, Perl, XML, OOAD, Linux, and Unix Training |
#3
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Are We Training Wrong?
Isn't this what Borowski has been saying? (Well maybe he speaks mostly of LT
minus as the emphasis.) And I thought that the Norwegians were looking at the Kenyan runners who avoided LSD. I sort of dread making this statement, but I'm not so sure that what the elite do to train physiology, or technique for that matter, pertains to a hacker like me. In any event, these days I do a lot more intervals and high intensity on roller skis than in years past when I did a lot of LSD. I think it has as much to do with logistics and time as it does with a training plan. Gary Jacobson (Practitioner of SSD- slow short distance) Rosendale, NY "Rob Bradlee" wrote in message o.com... Very interesting news! Thanks for pointing it out, Jay. I talked with a woman who was a gold medalist (without drugs) for East Germany in biathlon. She told me that they did almost exclusively high intensity workouts with careful monitoring to make sure they were working hard enough and then that they rested to recover. She thought the idea of lot of long easy distance was ridiculous. She said the American men (a decade ago) were training "like 12 year old girls". Clearly there is more than one way to achieve excellence. I have a huge personal bias towards LSD training because it's what I'm good at and I'm bad at intervals. On the other hand, I know that I have my best races after I've done a bunch of races close together like a week at Natl Masters. I wonder what Carl Swenson's training year looks like? Maybe all that summer racing is the best preparation for winter racing. Rob B. --- Jay Tegeder wrote: There's a discussion about training methods going on... Check out: www.fasterskier.com A Norwegian researcher, Ulrik Wisloff, claims most distance training is worthless and suggests mainly interval training. Any long distance training should be done at race speed. Vegard Ulvang weighs in and disputes his claims. Jay Tegeder "On the podium if the right people don't show up!" JT ===== Rob Bradlee Java, C++, Perl, XML, OOAD, Linux, and Unix Training |
#4
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Are We Training Wrong?
I read somewhere once that, if you do a lot of training, you can afford to put
in lots of low intensity volume (ala Lance Armstrong/professional athletes). But I've read that if you can't put in 12-20 hours per week training, you should have a higher percentage of higher intensity training in your regimen. In other words, you intensity sessions remain pretty constant and if you can, you fill up a longer week with LSD. I Fight like hell to find 6-8 hours per week. In my spare time, I'm a fighter pilot. Eric "Shmo" Chandler Duluth, MN |
#5
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Are We Training Wrong?
Rob Bradlee wrote:
Very interesting news! Thanks for pointing it out, Jay. I talked with a woman who was a gold medalist (without drugs) for East Germany in biathlon. She told me that they did almost exclusively high intensity workouts with careful monitoring to make sure they were working hard enough and then that they rested to recover. She thought the idea of lot of long easy distance was ridiculous. She said the American men (a decade ago) were training "like 12 year old girls". Clearly there is more than one way to achieve excellence. I have a huge personal bias towards LSD training because it's what I'm good at and I'm bad at intervals. On the other hand, I know that I have my best races after I've done a bunch of races close together like a week at Natl Masters. I wonder what Carl Swenson's training year looks like? Maybe all that summer racing is the best preparation for winter racing. Rob you have to take a look at the event that you are going to compete in and adjust your training accordingly. Look at biathlon, they ski for 10min and then stop to shoot for 1min and then skiis for 10min, doesn't this look like "natural" intervalls to you? To me it does and this also reflect the training methodes used. The problems with doing much intervalls is the ability to cope with the intensity all the time, to have ability to recover the body in a short time between sessions, othervice you come up short with a overtraining syndrom. LSD builds the base to do hard session uppon and i do think that Biatletes also do LSD sessions in theire of sesoon to get the platform to cope with the hard sessions later in the seasoon. -- Forward in all directions Janne G |
#6
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Are We Training Wrong?
Janne G wrote in message ...
Rob you have to take a look at the event that you are going to compete in and adjust your training accordingly. Look at biathlon, they ski for 10min and then stop to shoot for 1min and then skiis for 10min, doesn't this look like "natural" intervalls to you? To me it does and this also reflect the training methodes used. The problems with doing much intervalls is the ability to cope with the intensity all the time, to have ability to recover the body in a short time between sessions, othervice you come up short with a overtraining syndrom. OTOH Audun Svartdal is of the opinion that many "tur- løpere" donīt get enough return from their training input and that the training methods used by Norwegian biathletes are transferable to longer races and whom Jeff would call "cit racers": http://www.birkebeiner.no/rennet/trening.html There we have: "Easy long distance/recovery", Intensity 1: 1.0-2.5 hrs continuous work (occasionally up to 5-6 hrs); preferably a combination of sports and techniques. "Threshold training", Intensity 2: intervals around the anaerobic/lactate threshold, 5-10min with 1-2min recovery for a net duration of (from 30-35min at first) 45-75min. "Max 02 training", Intensity 3: intervals above the threshold, 3-5min with 3-4min recovery for a net of (15-20min) 20-30min. "Speed training", Intensity 5, full effort for 15-30s at a time with 3-4min recovery, 6-10 times, preferably within a shorter distance session. "The difference between threshold and max O2 training is crucial." In the former, the elimination of lactate should match its production, and should increase the duration and the repeats, not to accumulate lactate. "It is also very effective technique training." "The goal of Max o2 training is a high speed and a high HR. A too high concentration of lactate will result in a reduced speed and decreased HR." After two months (here May and June) of relatively large amounts of easy, varying training with a gradual adption of threshold and max o2 training, there is one session of each per week beginning from June. Towards the autumn (if "utover hausten" means that...) 2-3 Intensity 2-3 sessions per week, including tests and competitions. (In case I misunderstood, -translated or -sed something, corrections and additions are welcome!) Anders |
#7
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Are We Training Wrong?
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#9
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Are We Training Wrong?
I think a more complete way to say it is:
-- Both intervals _and_ slow distance improve "cardiovascular". -- Intervals improve shared _central_ cardiovascular (capacity of heart, lung, major arteries + veins). Slow distance improves specific-muscle _peripheral_ cardiovascular (density of capillaries) -- Intervals also produce important "peripheral" muscle-specific improvements: lactate threshold and lactate tolerance. Greg Fangel wrote I believe that interval training improves your VO2max and LSD improves your endurance, cardiovascular delevery system. Results from a long-term health+exercise study were reported recently in several newspapers. The key finding I remember was that the higher the _intensity_ of exercise sessions, the greater benefit to heart health and length of life. Intensity was found to be more important than Duration for long-term health. I think these results were for non-athletes. I think that it depends on what type of skier you are. If you are a skier at the American Birkie that slugs it out for 4-6 hours, I would believe that LSD training would work better for you as the bulk of your training. -- My experience is that for the goal of "making it thru the distance" in a running marathon, just one long slow distance workout every two weeks is enough -- if I progressively increase the time by say 10-15% in each slow-distance workout. Just have to get started on that program a sufficient number of months before the race. -- If still have time for a second workout each week, seems to me it makes more sense to use it something that will raise the lactate threshold. Because the higher the threshold, the faster you can go in the race without getting anywhere near that threshold. Especially for a hilly course, where it's kinda hard not to push up close to LT. So seems to me one intensity workout plus one slow-distance per week is much more valuable than two slow-distance workouts per week -- even for a 4-6 hour finisher. Ken |
#10
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Are We Training Wrong?
Leaving out the why of it, Stephen Seiler's website seems to agree
pretty much with what Ken says I think. The what of it seems to be easy to summarize : intensity takes precedence in any week where it occurs, and that should be 'every' week. (Even the elite take several weeks off just after the competition season.) By precedence, I mean that if one of intensity or LSD has to be skipped for some reason, skip the LSD. So in that sense, it seems to agree with the original premiss of this thread. For elites, the suggestion is about two intensity sessions every week all year (except those few weeks off). But lots and lots of LSD is also recommended, and the level is lower than most of us maybe do. Getting older, or maybe for any non-elites, maybe not stating the intensity till July or later, and making it usually once a week till much closer to snowtime, seems to make sense to me. Whether the LSD should then be a lot faster is a question which I can't seem to decide about. That's more fun, but sometimes I get prety tired it seems. So I blame that on maybe not enough sleep. But maybe that's caused by trying to do too much at too high a HR. I haven't actually looked at Seiler's site for a few years, so correct me if that's out of date. I think a lot of his info is from Norwegian coaches and physiologists, and from a time that might indicate that that's pretty much how Ulvang trained. Despite my profession, I'd take the advice of the doer (Ulvang), not the theorist. Best, Peter |
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