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approaching the dark side



 
 
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  #11  
Old December 18th 03, 12:00 PM
Peter Clinch
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Ulrich Hausmann wrote:

I disagree. Teleskiing is difficult for those (us, me, 50 years of fixed
heel skiing in the past) coming from alpine skiing - because you're
staying way way too aggressively (compared to what is the correct
position on teleski) on the skis. And you have to learn to stay more
backward to have weight enough on the inner ski. Once, you learned this,
all is easy. And, i'm pretty sure, initiating the turns by making a step
is even easier.


My alpine experience is one go on a dry slope and a week's holiday when
I was 11, so I doubt it had *too* much influence on my re-learning to
ski on free heels well into my 20s!

Again, the case that my instructor friend (who comes from a free-heel
background too, bought his first pair of alpine boots last year to pick
up some paperwork for that) feels that teles are far harder to learn
than other turns, and he's teaching parallel and tele to lots of people
and seeing first hand how people do at it, and people with free heel
touring background as well as alpine. "Once you have learned this all
is easy" rather bypasses the problem about that being one of the
difficult bits! ;-)

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

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  #12  
Old December 18th 03, 05:02 PM
Florian Anwander
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Hi Uli


But: I disagree with him about offpist
skiing with fixed heel. If you're well centered (for alpine skiing) over
the ski

This is what I mean't as a usual Alpine beginner it takes very long
until you find out, that beeing "well centered over the ski" is
essential - some will it never know.

If you start with Telemark, beeing "well centered" is a basic skill, you
learn before start to do the first stem turn.

Florian

  #13  
Old December 18th 03, 05:09 PM
Florian Anwander
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Hi Uli

See the posting of Florian. But: I disagree with him about offpist
skiing with fixed heel. If you're well centered (for alpine skiing) over
the ski

It seems you misunderstood me: Yes, _if_ you know, that being "well
centered over the ski" is essential for controlled skiing offpiste, then
you have much power. What I wanted to explain: If you start as beginner
with alpine skiing, noone tells you that "being well centered", helps a
lot. A lot of fine alpine piste skiers won't learn this ever.

If you start as beginner with telemark, you will learn this skill before
you start the first stem turn.

This is to my opinion a real big(!) advantage of starting with telemark.

Florian

  #14  
Old December 18th 03, 05:32 PM
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article ,
Martin Thornquist wrote:
[ Jim Bolinger ]

IMHO, the telemark turn is more difficult than with locked heels. With
modern AT (randonee) gear, there is little or no difference in
capabilities while in walk mode and a significant advantage in downhill
mode. YMMV. IANAT. (Cue usual arguments.)


This might be right for heavy tele, but definitely not for the light
side. There's an almost continous spectrum of gear from XC racing to
heavy tele. If you fall somewhere in the middle of this (i.e. touring
skis, not primarily downhill, and leather boots) tele is definitely
the way to go.


_ I'm not so convinced of this as I was. Having actually tried
it, I think there is a lot to be said for AT in rolling terrain.
Particularly, if there is any chance of skating.


AT/randonee might be the thing for skiing in the Alps and similar
places where most terrain is on the steep side -- fixed heel does give
more control, so it's probably right for very steep survival skiing.
In mellower terrain however, when the goal is the touring and not the
steep hillsides, tele is the way to go.


_ If you take a good long look at the Randonee racing gear, I
think for someone who's skills might not be the greatest AT
gear makes a lot of sense if you want to make turns at some
point. For rolling terrain I would stay away from Dynafit
and look at something like the Silvretta Pure. Ease of changing
modes is the key to making AT work for rolling terrain,
the Silvretta bar and heel just plain works... The one place
where AT clearly loses is kick'n'glide, you can do it, but
it's just not the same.

_ And if you want to go into weight weenie mode, I think you'll
be hard pressed to get a tele setup that skis as well as
the Dynafit for anywhere near the same weight. While mountain
boots suck for making turns, so do most lightweight NNN/BC
and 3 pin boots. The "extra" weight in a Dynafit setup is the
boots, not the bindings.

TLT - 24 oz.
NNN/BC - 16 oz.
G3 T9 - 37 oz.
Voile 3pin - 13 oz.

_ For what Chris wants to do, I think lightweight AT gear is the
way to go once he's gotten a turn down. He's got an ice axe and I
know he wants to use it. ( think Shasta in May... )

_ Booker C. Bense

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  #15  
Old December 18th 03, 11:56 PM
Ulrich Hausmann
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Florian Anwander wrote:

It seems you misunderstood me: Yes, _if_ you know, that being "well
centered over the ski" is essential for controlled skiing offpiste, then
you have much power. What I wanted to explain: If you start as beginner
with alpine skiing, noone tells you that "being well centered", helps a
lot. A lot of fine alpine piste skiers won't learn this ever.


Ok! But, staying centered on alpine skis is another kind than a well
centered stance on tele :-)) (the later, in comparison, way way backward
compared to alpine). Anyway, you're right, there is a kind of "ideology"
that tells to stay backward in alpine skiing, when you're skiing
offpist. And IMHO, that's pretty much stupid. You have to stay pretty
much like you have to stay in pist (but it requires a little bit of
courage to continue to simply ski even with the tips of your skis under
the snow). Essentially, that's it. Once you got this, there are no
poblems anymore

If you start as beginner with telemark, you will learn this skill before
you start the first stem turn.

This is to my opinion a real big(!) advantage of starting with telemark.


I can imagine that, but, obviously, it's not in my experience (since i'm
coming from a long and intensive alpine practice of all kinds.

Greetings,

Ulrich

--
reply to: uhausmannATbluemailDOTch
  #16  
Old December 19th 03, 12:06 AM
Ulrich Hausmann
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lac.stanford.edu wrote:

_ And if you want to go into weight weenie mode, I think you'll
be hard pressed to get a tele setup that skis as well as
the Dynafit for anywhere near the same weight. While mountain
boots suck for making turns, so do most lightweight NNN/BC
and 3 pin boots. The "extra" weight in a Dynafit setup is the
boots, not the bindings.

TLT - 24 oz.
NNN/BC - 16 oz.
G3 T9 - 37 oz.
Voile 3pin - 13 oz.

_ For what Chris wants to do, I think lightweight AT gear is the
way to go once he's gotten a turn down. He's got an ice axe and I
know he wants to use it. ( think Shasta in May... )


Hi Booker,

but the alpine randonee *race* equipment (for patroulleur races and
similar - we call that people sky runner) probably is far far more away
from decent alpine skiing than tele-touring equipment from decent tele
skiing.

The ultralight AT skis are ugly for all kind of movement on the snow
that isn't uphill running/racing!

Same for the boots. And if you're using Scarpa Denali or Garmont G-ride,
which are good for skiing, definitely you're on the heavy (and not so
comfortable) side. The great advantage IMHO (from too long use of very
tightened alpine race boots i suffer chronical periostitis in both feet)
of teleboots is, they 're way more comfortable, and to me, they allow to
continue to ski.

Small note to the Pure binding: Some friends of mine tested it and found
it *VERY* fragile (according to them, it will still need one season to
become a good AT binding).

Greetings,

Ulrich

--
reply to: uhausmannATbluemailDOTch
  #17  
Old December 19th 03, 09:18 AM
Peter Clinch
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lac.stanford.edu wrote:

_ I'm not so convinced of this as I was. Having actually tried
it, I think there is a lot to be said for AT in rolling terrain.
Particularly, if there is any chance of skating.


But it's a lot easier to put skate power through the ball of your foot
than via a hinge in front of it. Otherwise the track skaters would be
using rigid boots now.

Rolling terrain is a place for wax. I guess you could put a randonee
binding on a ski designed for grip wax, but I think there's probably a
reason why nobody does. If you're using skins in rolling terrain, even
with heavy packs, it makes a huge reduction in speed (hitting some
whiteout in a navigation tight spot last year, we all put our 40 mm
mohair skins on to slow us down to a predictable trudge)

the Silvretta bar and heel just plain works... The one place
where AT clearly loses is kick'n'glide, you can do it, but
it's just not the same.


Quite: and I find kick and glide is the way to eat up miles. Perhaps we
have a different idea of "rolling terrain"?

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

  #18  
Old December 19th 03, 01:56 PM
Ken Roberts
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Skate power is mainly through the heel. Having the heel free allows a
little extra range of motion in the push which adds no more than 5% to
skating power. It's nice to have, but not critical. Ice speedskaters only
started playing with free-heel skates ("klap-skates") less than ten years
ago. Most inline speedskaters on pavement still think free-heel frames are
not worth it, so they skate at amazing speeds with their heel _fixed_ to
their wheel-frame.

Peter Clinch wrote
But it's a lot easier to put skate power through the ball
of your foot than via a hinge in front of it. Otherwise the
track skaters would be using rigid boots now.


Focus on toe-push is a well-known pitfall for beginner skaters. The move
that leads to advanced skating (for touring or racing, not tricks) is to
learn to focus on pushing thru the heel, together with learning to push
directly out toward the side (not toward the back). That's true whether
skating on ice, pavement, or snow.

I'd guess that the advantage of like an Salomon X-Adventure or NNN-BC (if
using a stiffer bumper plug) over some AT binding is that they keep the heel
of the foot closer to the ski, so the recovery for the next skate-push is
easier to control.

Ken


  #19  
Old December 19th 03, 02:26 PM
Peter Clinch
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Ken Roberts wrote:

ago. Most inline speedskaters on pavement still think free-heel frames are
not worth it, so they skate at amazing speeds with their heel _fixed_ to
their wheel-frame.


Not a very handy comparison though, as the "ski" is scarcely longer than
the foot.

Focus on toe-push is a well-known pitfall for beginner skaters. The move
that leads to advanced skating (for touring or racing, not tricks) is to
learn to focus on pushing thru the heel, together with learning to push
directly out toward the side (not toward the back). That's true whether
skating on ice, pavement, or snow.


I'll happily take your word for that, but the fact remains that the top
skaters on skis are not using rigid bars underfoot as you'd have on an
AT binding. There'd be nothing preventing you from building a retainer
hook into one to keep the heel and ski close if there was any advantage
to doing that.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

  #20  
Old December 19th 03, 03:07 PM
Ken Roberts
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Peter Clinch wrote
the fact remains that the top skaters on skis are not using
rigid bars underfoot as you'd have on an AT binding.
There'd be nothing preventing you from building a retainer
hook into one to keep the heel and ski close if there was
any advantage to doing that.



More information about that:

-- in the Dynafit TLT binding system for Alpine Touring, there is no rigid
bar under the foot.

-- the Scarpa F1 boot for the Dynafit TLT system does not have a rigid boot
sole.

-- boots for serious ski-skate racing have soles that are pretty stiff,
similar to a Scarpa F1 AT boot.

-- the most popular binding for serious ski-skate racing (Salomon Pilot)
_does_ indeed have a _hook_ whose purpose is to keep the heel and ski close.
So there's no question about "any advantage".

-- unlike most tele boot-binding combintions, the Salomon Pilot binding has
no resistance which must first be overcome in order to press the heel of the
boot against the ski. The _mushiness_ of the heel connection ("rocker
launch") in most telemark boot-binding combinations is a very strange
concept to ski-skate racers. That's where an AT binding has an obvious
advantage for skating.

Ken


 




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