XCO training system: Angerer's secret?

Fall is coming and I am heading back to more serious (strenuous)
training regime for the next ski season. I started to jog with 1 kg
dumbells to give my shoulders some exercising. After 45 min of normal
jogging, I can say this training is a real workout, both for shoulders
and heart.

I found that Tobi Angerer also does (or, at least, advertizes) some
training using the so-called "XCO-walking and running" tubes (see
http://www.xc-ski.de/769-Specials_Th...training-.htm).
The pub says these tubes have a "reactive impact" that better train
muscles than using weights.
Does anybody ever heard of doing aerobic training with weights or with
these XCO trainers? Is that Tobi Angerer's secret training tip?

Rock

I can't read German and couldn't get the thumbnails (or videos) to work
on that site, to get a close look at what those tubes look like.
Speaking generally, I would suggest great care with weights and
shoulders. Most of us can handle 0-2 or 3 lbs maximum safely with side
lifts and physical therapist/trainers say that even elite athletes who
start at 3 lbs don't go above 5. Translate that sensitivity to what you
were doing with constant arm swinging for an extended time and it's got
to be a lot of stress on rotator cuffs and everything associated.
Consider it with ski and trekking poles. Compared to light weight
mid-line ski poles, heavier ones (Swix Alulite or Leki trekking) are
harder to control (skiing) and often lead to shoulder or elbow soreness
from the extra weight and repeated pounding. Angerer is an an elite
athlete, strong and well trained, which doesn't seem to apply to you,
and in any case I'd want to see what the details of what he's doing,
which I doubt that site goes into.

rm

wrote:

Fall is coming and I am heading back to more serious (strenuous)
training regime for the next ski season. I started to jog with 1 kg
dumbells to give my shoulders some exercising. After 45 min of normal
jogging, I can say this training is a real workout, both for shoulders
and heart.

I found that Tobi Angerer also does (or, at least, advertizes) some
training using the so-called "XCO-walking and running" tubes (see
http://www.xc-ski.de/769-Specials_Th...training-.htm).
The pub says these tubes have a "reactive impact" that better train
muscles than using weights.
Does anybody ever heard of doing aerobic training with weights or with
these XCO trainers? Is that Tobi Angerer's secret training tip?

Rock

rm,

It is unfortunate that you cannot watch the videos. They are amazing.
Angerer is running with these ~1kg? handbars pretty swiftly. I agree
that I am not in the elite class, but what he does seems pretty
feasable for any willing sportsman with a bit of training, starting
slowly first, and engaging arms at intervals.
I made a copy of one of the German videos to download for a while at
http://xcskiloppets.googlepages.com/home2 for your convenience. Have a
look!

I searched running discussion groups and over the Web about running
with dumbbells or weights, and the few comments found on this subject
are like the one you made: "not looking good to do this".

Using hand weights increases a lot energy expenditure (over 30%
according to studies released by XCO). My little experience shows that
running with such light weights is really demanding for the upper
body, and that the maximum speed I get with them is relatively slow in
order to reach, say 90% maximum heart rate (MHR). In turn, this modest
speed spares my legs and I feel it would prevent injuries that would
happen if I were running with bare hands at the much higher speed
needed to get 90% MHR. IMO, I will continue to train with them. Of
course, the secret may be in using them wisely.

Rock

Wouldn't it be safer with light ankle weights, a chest weight belt or a
large hydration pack - or maybe just choosing appropriate terrain?
Btw, what's your purpose in doing 90% for an extended length of time
except as an occasional specialized workout. What's your lactate at
that output?

rm

wrote:

rm,

It is unfortunate that you cannot watch the videos. They are amazing.
Angerer is running with these ~1kg? handbars pretty swiftly. I agree
that I am not in the elite class, but what he does seems pretty
feasable for any willing sportsman with a bit of training, starting
slowly first, and engaging arms at intervals.
I made a copy of one of the German videos to download for a while at
http://xcskiloppets.googlepages.com/home2 for your convenience. Have a
look!

I searched running discussion groups and over the Web about running
with dumbbells or weights, and the few comments found on this subject
are like the one you made: "not looking good to do this".

Using hand weights increases a lot energy expenditure (over 30%
according to studies released by XCO). My little experience shows that
running with such light weights is really demanding for the upper
body, and that the maximum speed I get with them is relatively slow in
order to reach, say 90% maximum heart rate (MHR). In turn, this modest
speed spares my legs and I feel it would prevent injuries that would
happen if I were running with bare hands at the much higher speed
needed to get 90% MHR. IMO, I will continue to train with them. Of
course, the secret may be in using them wisely.

Rock

Dear rm,

Why not using a chest weight belt or something similar in order to
increase workload instead of weights at arms' ends? That is the kind
of question I have been asking first.
The only answer I can find is this one: xc-skiers must have higher
upper body power (UBP) than runners to better perform. In an extensive
study (Gaskill et al., 1999), the researchers found that UBP for the
cross-country runners was only 46% of UBP for the cross-country
skiers.
I started using the dumbbells when I started a few weeks ago doing
intensity training (2-3 times/wk, 4 x 4 min at 90% MHR). No shoulder
problem so far. But it seems this is really not common practice. Watch
out Angerer!

Gaskill, S.E., Serfass, R.C. andRundell, K.W., 1999. Upper body power
comparison between groups of cross-country skiers and runners.
International Journal of Sports Medicine, 20(5): 290-294.

If you find out more about these tubes and specifically how German
skiers are using them, by all means post it. My and others' cautions
you've found are just what they are, general alerts to the
substantially increased risk of injury carrying weights from the
shoulders (a form of lifting). The importance of upper body strength
in ski racing is no news here, but have you asked what the underlying
principle of carrying a hand weight in exercise is and to what degree
that applies to x-c skiing? Baseball players and golfers swing
weighted bats/clubs to warm up and to help increase swing speed in
practice, but they are using two arms and their torsos and legs and not
doing it for extended periods or continuously. Likewise with the recent
kick of using kettle balls. The bulk of ski poling force comes from
engagement of abs and lats, vs. arm and rotator cuff strength. Thus, I
would think pole hiking/running and especially double/single poling on
rollerskis, supplemented by pull ups and tricep lifts, would be more
useful and safer workouts, as long as there's no banging of poles
(stretching lats/shoulder muscles helps too).

Roger



wrote:

Dear rm,

Why not using a chest weight belt or something similar in order to
increase workload instead of weights at arms' ends? That is the kind
of question I have been asking first.
The only answer I can find is this one: xc-skiers must have higher
upper body power (UBP) than runners to better perform. In an extensive
study (Gaskill et al., 1999), the researchers found that UBP for the
cross-country runners was only 46% of UBP for the cross-country
skiers.
I started using the dumbbells when I started a few weeks ago doing
intensity training (2-3 times/wk, 4 x 4 min at 90% MHR). No shoulder
problem so far. But it seems this is really not common practice. Watch
out Angerer!

Gaskill, S.E., Serfass, R.C. andRundell, K.W., 1999. Upper body power
comparison between groups of cross-country skiers and runners.
International Journal of Sports Medicine, 20(5): 290-294.

Seems to me there are far better ways to work on upper body strength/
endurance in the summer that are more sports-specific... e.g.
kayaking, double-pole workouts on roller-skis. When you ski you don't
actually carry a heavy weight in your hand. Try running with poles...
I did a long trail run with classic poles yesterday, modifying my
running technique to make it more "ski-like".
This seems like a gimmick. However, if I got to work out with Evi
Sachenbacher it may be worth a try.
Chris

However, if I got to work out with Evi
Sachenbacher it may be worth a try.
Chris


Evi Sachenbacher is the poster girl for these off-road rollerskis -
they look heavy.

http://www.skike.com/html2/index_2.php

Has anybody used them?

They look a lot like a somewhat improved and shorter version of the
NordiXC model of the Aero 150s from several years ago, broadly
customized to the skier's foot size. I doubt Evi is racing or training
on them.

wrote:

However, if I got to work out with Evi
Sachenbacher it may be worth a try.
Chris


Evi Sachenbacher is the poster girl for these off-road rollerskis -
they look heavy.

http://www.skike.com/html2/index_2.php

Has anybody used them?

I doubt Evi is racing or training
on them.


Yeah - I doubt she is....from the video on the website, the skike
seems to promote poor skating technique, i.e., lifting the ski and
stepping. They might be useful for double-pole on dirt trails,
though....

Jim