Stopping and turning

Hiya....I'm a relative beginner at diagonal, actually a 4th year old
guy. I've recently graduated to the intermediate trails and do well with
an exception: on very steep downhill slopes, I can;t seem to slow, stop
and turn worth a damn. with gradual turns I'm okay, and can do
relatively well with fast downhill straight . Does anyone know of a
video, a website, or something similar to show the technique for
stopping/turning/staying ON your feet? My ass has callouses from
yesterdays attempts! Even some written suggestions would be appreciated
a lot.

Randy

My reply doesn't seem to have made it. Dan Claussen's Nordicross! is
the only x-c ski video I know of that has a section on downhill
skinnyski techniques. While Dan doesn't promote it any more, probably
because the skating section is dated, it is an excellent video for
novices and intermediate skiers, with full sections on classic, skate
and waxing. Unfortunately, it's out of print. I see copies around
occasionally. Check with Akers and Eagle River Nordic, watch ebay or get
someone with a copy who is willing to make one for you.

Best, tho, is go take a lesson or two at a resort, as words don't convey
the images adequately. Most resorts and many ski club programs give
intermediate level lessons, or you could take a private lesson. Tell
the instructor what you want to focus on. I'd also suggest watching WC
videos, however it sounds like what downhill/turning you'll see on those
is far beyond where you're at. Good luck.

Gene

Randy Bryan wrote:

Hiya....I'm a relative beginner at diagonal, actually a 4th year old
guy. I've recently graduated to the intermediate trails and do well with
an exception: on very steep downhill slopes, I can;t seem to slow, stop
and turn worth a damn. with gradual turns I'm okay, and can do
relatively well with fast downhill straight . Does anyone know of a
video, a website, or something similar to show the technique for
stopping/turning/staying ON your feet? My ass has callouses from
yesterdays attempts! Even some written suggestions would be appreciated
a lot.

Randy

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Hi Randy-
There's a solution, but it's not necessarily quick and easy. Go to a downhill area, take some lessons with alpine skis (or even telemark skis to get that freeheel feeling) to learn how to make stem and/or parallel turns, and then practice, practice, practice.

It's fun work if you can get it, though-
Chris

Randy Bryan wrote:
Hiya....I'm a relative beginner at diagonal, actually a 4th year old
guy. I've recently graduated to the intermediate trails and do well with
an exception: on very steep downhill slopes, I can;t seem to slow, stop
and turn worth a damn. with gradual turns I'm okay, and can do
relatively well with fast downhill straight . Does anyone know of a
video, a website, or something similar to show the technique for
stopping/turning/staying ON your feet? My ass has callouses from
yesterdays attempts! Even some written suggestions would be appreciated
a lot.

Randy






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DIVHi Randy-/DIV
DIVThere's a solution, but it's not necessarily quick and easy.  Go to a downhill area, take some lessons with alpine skis (or even telemark skis to get that freeheel feeling) to learn how to make stem and/or parallel turns, and then practice, practice, practice./DIV
DIV /DIV
DIVIt's fun work if you can get it, though-/DIV
DIVChrisBRBRBIRandy Bryan >/I/B wrote:/DIV
BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"Hiya....I'm a relative beginner at diagonal, actually a 4th year old BRguy. I've recently graduated to the intermediate trails and do well with BRan exception: on very steep downhill slopes, I can;t seem to slow, stop BRand turn worth a damn. with gradual turns I'm okay, and can do BRrelatively well with fast downhill straight . Does anyone know of a BRvideo, a website, or something similar to show the technique for BRstopping/turning/staying ON your feet? My ass has callouses from BRyesterdays attempts! Even some written suggestions would be appreciated BRa lot.BRBRRandyBRBRBRBRBR/BLOCKQUOTEp
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Hi Randy,

Here is an article I wrote for Master Skier a few years ago. It might
help a bit. Hopefully the formatting won't be too messed up. If you want a
cleaner copy, email me directly and I'll send you a PDF or something.

Good Luck,

Nathan
www.nsavage.com

One of the most surprising things I have learned from coaching is how little
most cross-country skiers know about descending. Even expert skiers who
have spent countless hours honing technique often have no concept of how to
descend and corner.

Downhills should be fun, not scary. Learning to descend with confidence and
speed is actually quite simple, and with a little knowledge and practice
most people make dramatic improvements in a very short time.

As with all skiing techniques, proper descending starts with the correct
body position. This fundamental position is a relaxed stance with feet
slightly wider than shoulder-width apart, with a lowered center of gravity
created by bending at the knees and ankles. The upper body and arms should
be forward, leading with the hands at roughly stomach- to chest-level. This
position creates a stable, dynamic platform that maximizes balance and
control. By staying relaxed, one can soak up terrain changes, while the
wide stance allows initiation of comfortable, stable turns and quick lateral
movement when needed.

To get comfortable with this position, begin on a flat trail at low speed.
A very wide trail or Alpine hill is best to give room to experiment and
allow for the inevitable errors. Gradually increase the speed and steepness
as you become more confident.

Once you have mastered the basic position, you can increase speed and
stability by lowering into an aerodynamic tuck. You can move between the
tuck and fundamental downhill position when corners and other obstacles
present themselves.

From the basic downhill position, create a tuck by bending at the knees and
waist so the back is horizontal. Look forward, placing hands in front of
the mouth and resting the elbows on the thighs, just behind the knees.
Poles should rest in the fold of the waist and be horizontal, not sticking
straight up as seen in countless back-of-the-pack Birkie photos. To maximize
speed and also get a nice leg burn, move lower by putting the elbows in
front of the knees.

Once you can hurl yourself at top-speed downhill comfortably, it's time to
learn how to negotiate those pesky corners lurking at the bottom. Approach
all corners in the same way: relax, check body position, and look where you
want to go, not at the scary things you want to avoid such as trees and that
guy in the power-wedge tuck with poles sticking straight up. Think
positively: visualize how you will negotiate the turn, not what will happen
if you ski off the trail. This may seem silly, but crashing is a certainty
if you let thoughts of crashing creep in your head. Don't panic - keep a
clear head and you will surprise yourself with what you can do.

Next, choose your line and set up accordingly. Generally, the best line
will be the largest radius arc. This arc begins on the outside of the
curve, swoops to the inside at the apex of the turn, and then moves back
outside at exit. This line may need to be altered due to conditions such as
when a corner has been scraped down to bedrock by 5000 snowplowing skiers.

Initiate turns by moving the outside hand forward and pointing your body in
the direction of travel. Make sure your weight is low and forward to
maximize stability.

Now it is time to perform the turn. There are four basic XC turns to choose
from: Step, Skate, Snowplow, and Slide. Each has distinct advantages that
make it useful in specific situations. It is helpful to note that in all of
these, the inside ski steers the skier through the turn.
The Step Turn is accomplished by making quick steps toward the inside of the
corner, changing direction slightly with each step. It is useful for small
changes in direction or turns where you don't want to add or subtract speed.
To perform the step turn, begin by weighting the outside ski, then pick up
the inside ski and step in toward the corner, pointing the inside ski a
little bit toward the inside of the curve. Transfer weight to the inside
ski and then bring the outside ski back in parallel to the inside ski.
Repeat, taking small, quick steps as many times as needed to complete the
turn. Poles are not used during a step turn.
The Skate Turn is a combination of the Step Turn and the Marathon Skate.
This turn moves the skier quickly around the corner while adding significant
speed.
The Marathon Skate is skating with one ski while the other ski rests in the
classic track. For those who have never heard of this, rent a circa-1980
ski video and practice what you see until you get at least three surly
glares from knicker-clad classical skiers.
Think of the Skate Turn as the inside ski doing a step turn while the
outside ski is marathon skating. The turn begins by skating hard off the
outside ski while (optionally) poling toward the inside of the corner. At
the end of the skate stroke, place the inside ski as in a step turn: toward
the inside of the corner, pointed slightly in the direction of the turn.
Glide on the inside ski while hauling in the outside ski in preparation to
repeat the cycle. Repeat as many times as needed to negotiate the curve.
The Snowplow Turn is useful when you want to check your speed through a
corner and don't mind being teased by snooty Master Skier writers. The
"Wedge" can be done in varying degrees depending on the slowing power
required. However, it is not the best way to stop or turn quickly, despite
its wide acceptance for these purposes in the latter waves of many ski
marathons.
Initiate the Snowplow Turn by actively steering the skis toward each other
to form a wedge. As the skis move into the wedge position, bend the knees
and shift the weight to the inside edges. Lean into the corner slightly and
steer the inside ski in the direction of the turn. Shift weight to the
inside edge of the outside ski to increase turning power. Steer using both
feet around the corner while the outside ski slides across the snow. Don't
rotate your body much; move as a whole while keeping your weight low and
forward. The wedge puts the knees in danger if the legs are forced wide or
the knees are straightened, so be careful with it and use other methods when
you can.
A better way to stop or take a tight, fast corner is a Slide or Parallel
Turn. This turn gives you maximum cornering and stopping ability, but can
scrub speed significantly. There are two components: carving and sliding.
The carve is created by flexing the ski in an arc and applying the inside
edge to the snow, turning the skis along this "carved" arc. Unfortunately,
cross-country skis do not carve particularly well, and in order to turn
quickly, we often have to turn our skis in the direction we want to travel
by first sliding them and then applying weight to the edges in order to
complete the turn.
Initiate a parallel turn by standing up slightly to unweight the skis.
Begin turning the inside ski by leaning uphill and into the turn while
forcing your body around with your hips. As you steer your inside ski
toward the direction of the turn, keep leaning uphill, bend your knees, and
load the inside edge of the outside ski. Uphill lean is important here -
the pull of gravity will be balanced by the force of the turn and any
deceleration caused by sliding. The skis should be roughly parallel to each
other as you come back down on them and set your inside edges. The majority
of your weight should come down on your outside ski.
The degree of sliding controls how quickly speed is reduced. Create slide
by turning the skis past the direction of travel before transferring weight
to the inside edges. The degree of sliding depends on how far past the turn
direction you go - perpendicular to the direction of travel will produce a
hockey stop, while a slight overturn will create a minor skid.
To carve without sliding, point the skis in the direction you want to turn,
arc the skis by first applying pressure forward to the tip of the ski and
then back as the edges dig in and the skis begin to bend. Steer through the
turn with both feet, keeping the edges down and the skis arced. Exiting a
parallel turn involves moving off the edges while using the inside leg and
momentum to push you out of the uphill lean and back to a neutral position.
Armed with the basic body position and a small repertoire of turns,
downhills become one of the pure delights of skiing. Learn these
techniques, spread the word, and banish forever the panic-stricken power
wedge. Please.



"Randy Bryan" wrote in message
news
Hiya....I'm a relative beginner at diagonal, actually a 4th year old
guy. I've recently graduated to the intermediate trails and do well with
an exception: on very steep downhill slopes, I can;t seem to slow, stop
and turn worth a damn. with gradual turns I'm okay, and can do
relatively well with fast downhill straight . Does anyone know of a
video, a website, or something similar to show the technique for
stopping/turning/staying ON your feet? My ass has callouses from
yesterdays attempts! Even some written suggestions would be appreciated
a lot.

Randy

Randy,

There has already been quite a long thread on this board with some
useful tips, which you may find helpful- last post 17th Feb "
Question on coming down a hill".

Most of the technique books and videos that I have seen, tell you how
to stop and turn on an open slope but have no tips for tracks. The
only exception that I know of is Ned Gillette's book, now sadly out of
print, but still worth a read if you can find a copy.

The first thing to do is to practice stopping and turning on an open
hill with a safe run-out. Master a steady snow-plow to control speed
and then progress to wedge turns. After that, learn to step-turn and
to step in and out of the plow. Some good lessons will speed your
learning process.

The second thing to do is to watch how other skiers cope with the
tricky tracks. Probably best to start by watching those who are a
little better than you, rather than the racers who have been ski-ing
since they could walk.

When you do tackle the steep tracks - control your speed from the top,
to a speed where you are confident you can turn and stop. That speed
will increase as you get better.

Happy ski-ing
Alex



Randy Bryan wrote in message ...
Hiya....I'm a relative beginner at diagonal, actually a 4th year old
guy. I've recently graduated to the intermediate trails and do well with
an exception: on very steep downhill slopes, I can;t seem to slow, stop
and turn worth a damn. with gradual turns I'm okay, and can do
relatively well with fast downhill straight . Does anyone know of a
video, a website, or something similar to show the technique for
stopping/turning/staying ON your feet? My ass has callouses from
yesterdays attempts! Even some written suggestions would be appreciated
a lot.

Randy

On 21/2/05 12:58 pm, "Alex" wrote:

Randy,

There has already been quite a long thread on this board with some
useful tips, which you may find helpful- last post 17th Feb "
Question on coming down a hill".

Most of the technique books and videos that I have seen, tell you how
to stop and turn on an open slope but have no tips for tracks. The
only exception that I know of is Ned Gillette's book, now sadly out of
print, but still worth a read if you can find a copy.

The first thing to do is to practice stopping and turning on an open
hill with a safe run-out. Master a steady snow-plow to control speed
and then progress to wedge turns. After that, learn to step-turn and
to step in and out of the plow. Some good lessons will speed your
learning process.

The second thing to do is to watch how other skiers cope with the
tricky tracks. Probably best to start by watching those who are a
little better than you, rather than the racers who have been ski-ing
since they could walk.

When you do tackle the steep tracks - control your speed from the top,
to a speed where you are confident you can turn and stop. That speed
will increase as you get better.

Happy ski-ing
Alex



Randy Bryan wrote in message
...
Hiya....I'm a relative beginner at diagonal, actually a 4th year old
guy. I've recently graduated to the intermediate trails and do well with
an exception: on very steep downhill slopes, I can;t seem to slow, stop
and turn worth a damn. with gradual turns I'm okay, and can do
relatively well with fast downhill straight . Does anyone know of a
video, a website, or something similar to show the technique for
stopping/turning/staying ON your feet? My ass has callouses from
yesterdays attempts! Even some written suggestions would be appreciated
a lot.

Randy




Ski-ing down hill is the best bit! But it ain't easy. I've spent a lot of
time in alpine skis, telemark skis and skinny skis on piste and I found
those Norweigan in track descents pretty challenging. But great fun, but I'm
used to falling. FWIW I found a telemark positions helped me steer through
turns on the (classic) tracks.
andyb

Actually, one book I forgot about, The Essential Cross Country Skier
(Paul Petersen & Richard Lovett) has some pages of text and excellent
photos on just what you are looking for, plus it's a good all around
book. It's still in print. See he
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846

Gene

Gene,
Thanks, and happy coincidence: I had ordered this from Amazon the day I
posted the question. I also got the Tao of SKiing, the older XCountry
videos and a couple of more I'd forgotten. Prolly the best idea yet is
to pay for some lessons, eh?


Gene Goldenfeld wrote:
Actually, one book I forgot about, The Essential Cross Country Skier
(Paul Petersen & Richard Lovett) has some pages of text and excellent
photos on just what you are looking for, plus it's a good all around
book. It's still in print. See he
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846

Gene

Randy Bryan wrote:

Gene,
Thanks, and happy coincidence: I had ordered this from Amazon the day I
posted the question. I also got the Tao of SKiing, the older XCountry
videos and a couple of more I'd forgotten. Prolly the best idea yet is
to pay for some lessons, eh?

Yep. Good skiing.

"Nathan Schultz" wrote

excellent info on XC downhill

What amazes me is that a lot of good skiers - much faster overall than me -
snowplow like crippled old ladies/gents with hip replacements when
approaching any corner. Really flimsy, poor snowplows. But that's not bad,
because it's always best to be in control. What's bad is that they spend 0,
I mean ZERO time practicing downhill. They NEVER find easy hills to
practice pushing around corners and then build up difficulty and speed.
They never practice going fast around corners in the tracks. Zero, zilch
nada. They go on for YEARS snowplowing like they've never skied before. I
just don't understand why someone would totally ignore this technique and
spend years and years being petrified and incompetent in hills. Practice.
Whenever someone asks me to help them with downhill, I try to give some
basic pointers, but I always tell them to find a hill they can handle and
then practice what I've shown them (mostly they wonder how to push around
corners). Start slow, at the level of control, then build up as skill
develops. Virtually none of them follow this advice. They think I can show
them and they will learn... then they just go out and ski and snowplow.

Cam