Damn it's hard to buy Nordic Skis Nowadays!

First off, I would like to note that you weren't honest in your
original post. Really, this is about your dislike for REI. Which
is OK, this is usenet after all.

SMS wrote:
People like to buy their equipment close to home. That's why stores that
are hundreds of miles from the closest snow sell skis (ditto for
climbing equipment).

I'm not sure you're connected with reality here.

If I lived a couple of hours drive from the nearest skiable snow
I have no doubt that the nearest shop to buy ski stuff would be
a couple of hours drive away. And when Gene talks about ski shops
in the Twin Cities, in a similar situation I doubt many of them
would be devoting floor space to skis.

The guy that runs my favorite shop knows the numbers. He knows
how much revenue per square foot he needs in order to justify
the space. Years ago he used to sell inline skates. He stopped
when the revenue stream dropped below that point, and he replaced
them with something else.

We have chain stores here too. Clothing has better markups and
require no sales expertise. The local shop sells Patagonia and
Trek branded stuff, where he isn't competing directly with the
chain stores. Most of his stuff targets a niche where he can
get his margins to a point where he can survive.

If something changes his numbers then he has to adapt to that.
Now, I don't know the details about retail operations in the bay
area. But a former employer with headquarters there kept a failed
business model afloat for years by burning through massively
appreciated real estate. So I am guessing that shops in the area
were adapting to this, and that marginal uses were shaken out.

And I hate to say it, but selling ski stuff in a place where it
doesn't snow just might be a marginal use.

I remember when REI didn't sell downhill skis or snowboards, and they
had a tiny selection of rather crappy road bicycles. Now they are into
downhill skiing and snowboarding and mountain biking big time, and less
into stuff like backpacking or XC skiing. In the Bay Area, only two of
their nine stores carry XC skis (Berkeley and Saratoga). I don't blame
them; stocking ten different sizes of ten different ski models, and 15
different sizes of five types of boots, is tough when the TAM is so small.

REI is one of the few stores where you can buy a commuter bike or
touring bike--few bicycle stores carry them any more, but REI still has
them made for them under their Novara brand.

See, you're just not that connected to reality. No one carries
touring bikes anymore because bicycle touring represents a market
niche. If you sell a million bikes only a small number of them
will ever carry a pannier.

But the world is flooded with commuter bikes.
http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/urban/
http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/...nuItemId=12189
http://www.giant-bicycles.com/en-us/...ty/6963/43123/

Just swimming with them. Every major bike manufacturer has a
product in that space. Unlike touring bikes, which only represent
a small niche.

And I want to note that if the numbers on the Sierra Club ski
outings are dropping, it is entirely possible that that is a
reflection on the Sierra Club and not on skiing. Is the hair
color on the remaining outings trending a little grayer?

Bob Schwartz

On Wed, 10 Mar 2010 15:48:47 -0600
Bob Schwartz wrote:

And I want to note that if the numbers on the Sierra Club ski
outings are dropping, it is entirely possible that that is a
reflection on the Sierra Club and not on skiing. Is the hair
color on the remaining outings trending a little grayer?

I'm no longer a member, but aging was so much the case in LA by the mid
1990s that they were actively working on more youth-oriented
recruiting. The Bay Area seemed a fair bit younger, but I never got a
full look. It didn't help, at least in California, when about 10 years
ago it came to the surface that the underlying principles of the Sierra
Club are anti-immigrant, with one faction running a national slate
openly on that platform and getting 40% of the vote (immigrants mean
more population, therefore screw up the environment, so the argument
goes). But I think the shift is mainly the Me Generation and its
subsequent variants being less interested, or less able to afford
certain little-used types of increasingly expensive toys, such as x-c
skis (individual income has pretty much been dropping since the early
1970s in the U.S., while household income has been flat, at least prior
to 2008).

Gene

wrote:
On Wed, 10 Mar 2010 15:48:47 -0600
Bob Schwartz wrote:

And I want to note that if the numbers on the Sierra Club ski
outings are dropping, it is entirely possible that that is a
reflection on the Sierra Club and not on skiing. Is the hair
color on the remaining outings trending a little grayer?

I'm no longer a member, but aging was so much the case in LA by the mid
1990s that they were actively working on more youth-oriented
recruiting. The Bay Area seemed a fair bit younger, but I never got a
full look. It didn't help, at least in California, when about 10 years
ago it came to the surface that the underlying principles of the Sierra
Club are anti-immigrant, with one faction running a national slate
openly on that platform and getting 40% of the vote (immigrants mean
more population, therefore screw up the environment, so the argument
goes).

Actually I was thinking about the ill advised war on mountain
biking. By the mid 90s the Sierra Club would have been well into
their effort to alienate outdoors oriented young people.

But I think the shift is mainly the Me Generation and its
subsequent variants being less interested, or less able to afford
certain little-used types of increasingly expensive toys, such as x-c
skis (individual income has pretty much been dropping since the early
1970s in the U.S., while household income has been flat, at least prior
to 2008).

The Birkie had a record turnout this year.

The average Birkie skier is atypical, because they represent a
demographic able to travel to a ski race. But here are the numbers.

http://www.birkie.com/news_article/show/37342

They are a highly educated group and probably more resistant than
others to economic trends.

Bob Schwartz

wrote:

I'm no longer a member, but aging was so much the case in LA by the mid
1990s that they were actively working on more youth-oriented
recruiting. The Bay Area seemed a fair bit younger, but I never got a
full look. It didn't help, at least in California, when about 10 years
ago it came to the surface that the underlying principles of the Sierra
Club are anti-immigrant, with one faction running a national slate
openly on that platform and getting 40% of the vote (immigrants mean
more population, therefore screw up the environment, so the argument
goes).

There are other problems besides that group of idiots with their
anti-immigration agenda trying to hijack the club's agenda. The local
chapter where I am located has been in bed with big developers trying to
build high-density housing out in the suburbs. I got a nastygram from
our local chapter when I used quotes, in context, from the National
Sierra Club web site in a local ballot measure. The local chapter was
against us, and was furious that we quoted the National Sierra Club in
our ballot argument (we won, big time).

But I think the shift is mainly the Me Generation and its
subsequent variants being less interested, or less able to afford
certain little-used types of increasingly expensive toys, such as x-c
skis (individual income has pretty much been dropping since the early
1970s in the U.S., while household income has been flat, at least prior
to 2008).

You'd be hard pressed to find any sporting goods equipment that has
stayed as constant in price as non-extreme XC skis. In real dollars,
it's much cheaper now, and most of the stuff is not even made in China.

Bob Schwartz wrote:

Actually I was thinking about the ill advised war on mountain
biking. By the mid 90s the Sierra Club would have been well into
their effort to alienate outdoors oriented young people.

Yes, that was exceedingly stupid.

On Mar 6, 6:01*pm, SMS wrote:
The spousal unit really hates her 16 year old Asolo Blisterfield II
boots, and wanted NNN-BC boots and bindings. She also really needs
lighter skis than her Europa 99's for the kind of stuff she does.

There used to be at least 10 stores selling nordic skis on the San
Francisco Peninsula, including North Face (x2), Sierra Designs, Western
Mountaineering (x2), REI, Any Mountain, Helm of Sun Valley, The Co-op,
Mel Cotton's, and several other stores that I can't remember the names
of. Most of those stores are out of business, and of the remaining ones
no longer carry nordic skis. Only _one_ of the four REI stores on the
Peninsula carriers Nordic skis, and their selection and stock is awful.
I ended up driving 50 miles to Berkeley to go to Marmot Mountain Works,
a store that's a real PITA because it's busy but has only one employee
working the sales floor, going nuts with all the people bombarding him
for help. I also got a new pair for myself at Marmot, but they were out
of 3 pin bindings so I went to REI in Berkeley to buy bindings because
the REI near me in Saratoga ran out of bindings (both NNN-BC and 3 pin).

It's pretty bad that an area with a population of 3.5 million people
can't support a single actual mountaineering store.

Nothing to be upset about. Bejing has way more than 3.5 mln people, I
am sure you would have an even harder time there. San Fran is
relatively close to the Sierrras (3 hrs, day trip for me), but most of
my co-workers (scientists) go to the Sierras once a winter, and that's
for "real" skiing (for me nordic is "real" but that's a different
story). If you need quality XC stuff you have to go where the snow is
- i.e. Truckee, or go online. And backcountry E99-like stuff is even
more esoteric than nordic per se (i.e. skiing on groomed trails).

Mammoth Mntn in Berkeley is probably the only store in the BA that can
be remotely called a "montaineering store". Most people I see there
are renting downhill skis to ski at SugarBowl. If you want quality
specialized equipment you have to go out of your way. What percentage
of the average population finds sleeping in the snow plain insane and
pointless? 99.99.

On Wed, 10 Mar 2010 18:22:57 -0600
Bob Schwartz wrote:

The average Birkie skier is atypical, because they represent a
demographic able to travel to a ski race. But here are the numbers.

http://www.birkie.com/news_article/show/37342

They are a highly educated group and probably more resistant than
others to economic trends.

Yeah, but they are not the ones who would keep the stores in the Bay
Area and LA in x-c ski gear.

Gene