Bad glide on classic skis

Normally with and old set of skis, you'd suspect the kick zone first
as producing the problems. E.g. you may have hit some new snow that
iced up on the bases, but that really seems unlikely with such hard
waxes.

If you took a pair of skate skis and prepped them as you did, I would
expect problems with glide. A number of warm scrapes with _very sharp_
(as sharp as you can get it) plastic scraper followed by some
hardening (as someone else suggested). Classic skis seem to have more
pronounced pressure points, so I find the glide zones harder than
skate skis to really get up to speed. I guess I'm saying I think it's
the glide zones that were the problem and the skis need more waxing
and skiing. Certainly the snow could have gotten sharper, drier, etc
and made the grip wax much more grippy, and it could have been a
combination of things, but I'd look at the glide zones.

Jay

On Mar 1, 12:55 am, sherwindu wrote:
I may be oversimplifying the situation, but I think this was a case of the wrong
kick
wax for the air/snow temperature. Did you check to see if you had any snow
sticking to the kick area, which would indicate too warm a wax for the
conditions.
Ice build up could also be a problem. There is a close trade off between grip
and
glide. Sometimes, you have to sacrifice a bit of grip to increase your glide,
and
visa versa. Your comment about the snow balling up under the ski indicates to
me
that you were using too warm a ski wax.

Sherwin D.



wrote:
I am new to waxable classics this year and used them for the first
time at the Canadian Ski Marathon and the Keskinada. I seem to be
able to wax well for a decent kick (at least I was able to get up the
hills fairly well) but at the Keski my glide was poor after the first
10K or so. Previously, on the long downhills I found myself jumping
out of the tracks when I used my waxless -- at fast speeds I lost my
nerve. But this year the same tracks were never scary -- and I doubt
that it was because I had finally become a dare-devil downhill skier.
Ha! I simply never got to wicked speeds on the downhills this
year.

Comparing myself to others, in the first 10K I was keeping up well or
passing on the downhills. After that, I continued to lose ground,
though still did well climbing.

I used Toko Dibloc red in the glide zones, and a mix of VR40 over VR30
on top of a binder in the kick zone. Temps got warm -- upper 20s
Fahrenheit.

Any suggestions? Perhaps I put too many layers of kick wax on and the
skis dragged? The kick wax was too cold/warm? Sometimes it seemed
like snow was balling up under the ski. I brushed them off once.

There were a few white spots on the glide zones after the race, but
that didn't seem too unusual for a long race on newer skis. Or is
it?

As for fit, the skis are new as of December and were fitted by a
reputable shop.

Thanks for input!
Mary- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If the kick wax was too cold, the kick won't have been good. I find
it hard to believe that vr40 was too warm for mid-20s, maybe...

On Feb 28, 6:42 pm, wrote:
Have you gotten alot of K on the skis since you bought them or have
you gotten them ground from a local shop? Depending on the machine,
it can take from 0-300Km before the skis are fast.

Not a lot of time on them, since we haven't had much snow. I've been
ironing in warm wax, but perhaps they simply need more.



Did you get your kick zone marked? Usually shops will draw a line on
the ski telling you where to wax.

Yes, I'm marked for hard waxes and kllister

how are your corking skills? After you corked, was the kick wax
smooth or did it have ridges?

I think I am corking ok, but perhaps putting on more than is
necessary, so it takes a bit to get the wax smooth.

Thanks for the reply. Perhaps I just need to get more warm wax ironed
in,
Mary

"
Thanks for the reply. Perhaps I just need to get more warm wax ironed
in,
"
I agree with the comment below (RM), you need to iron in some very
hard wax into a newer pair of skis. In other words you need to harden
the base.

Do this once a year....
Get some cheap wax for temps below 15F.
Wax the skis with the cold wax
Wax the skis with the warm wax
do the previous two step until... forever...


Also, instead of using the binder right up to the end of the kick
zone, go in about inch on either side. In general, be very
conservative with the binder, and pretty conservative with other kick
wax. You can easily add kick wax, but removal is tricky.

GOOD LUCK!!!

On Feb 28, 10:00 am, wrote:
I am new to waxable classics this year and used them for the first
time at the Canadian Ski Marathon and the Keskinada. I seem to be
able to wax well for a decent kick (at least I was able to get up the
hills fairly well) but at the Keski my glide was poor after the first
10K or so. Previously, on the long downhills I found myself jumping
out of the tracks when I used my waxless -- at fast speeds I lost my
nerve. But this year the same tracks were never scary -- and I doubt
that it was because I had finally become a dare-devil downhill skier.
Ha! I simply never got to wicked speeds on the downhills this
year.



Thanks for input!
Mary

Mary,

Reading between the lines, when you say that you are new to waxable
classic skis, does this mean that you skied on "patterned" classic
skis that had faster glide, or are you comparing your classic skis to
skating skis?

If you glide comparison is between your new waxable classic skis and
"no-grip-wax" skis, how have you been preparing the glide zones of the
"no-grip-wax" skis? If you have both skis glide waxed and structured
the same way, then we would have to suspect either the grip wax or the
fit.

Edgar

Reading between the lines, when you say that you are new to waxable
classic skis, does this mean that you skied on "patterned" classic
skis that had faster glide, or are you comparing your classic skis to
skating skis?

I was referring to waxless classic skis with a pattern (though I do
the majority of skiing on skate skis -- I've just gotten into classic
after years of skate-ony).


If you glide comparison is between your new waxable classic skis and
"no-grip-wax" skis, how have you been preparing the glide zones of the
"no-grip-wax" skis? If you have both skis glide waxed and structured
the same way, then we would have to suspect either the grip wax or the
fit.

I prepped the glide zone on the waxless classics as I would my skate
skis: ironed in warm wax when they were new and then for a race a
cold wax, scraped and a wax appropriate for the day (and then scraped
and brushed). On the pattern I just did a rub on wax for no-wax
skis. It's the same thing I do for the skate skis (skipping the kick
zone of course).

Do this once a year....
Get some cheap wax for temps below 15F.
Wax the skis with the cold wax
Wax the skis with the warm wax
do the previous two step until... forever...

Looks like a good plan for the summer.


Also, instead of using the binder right up to the end of the kick
zone, go in about inch on either side. In general, be very
conservative with the binder, and pretty conservative with other kick
wax. You can easily add kick wax, but removal is tricky.

I have binder ironed in through the full kick zone. I'll try cleaning
it out and pairing it down a bit. Thanks for the suggestions.

Mary

A very good instructional page for glide waxing is Zach Caldwell's
post-grind instructions at www.engineeredtuning.net, pdf link at bottom
of the page. Assume your skis have been recently ground and start with
saturation and work on through. You can do these in a day or two
while doing other things, since the saturation step doesn't require
complete rewaxing each time.

rm

wrote:


Do this once a year....
Get some cheap wax for temps below 15F.
Wax the skis with the cold wax
Wax the skis with the warm wax
do the previous two step until... forever...

Looks like a good plan for the summer.


Also, instead of using the binder right up to the end of the kick
zone, go in about inch on either side. In general, be very
conservative with the binder, and pretty conservative with other kick
wax. You can easily add kick wax, but removal is tricky.

I have binder ironed in through the full kick zone. I'll try cleaning
it out and pairing it down a bit. Thanks for the suggestions.

Mary

Mary,

I had a rather poor race, though I enjoyed it,
in the Keski 50 classic, for various reasons,
poor glide being part of it, but not the main factor.
I've thought of what went wrong on the glide,
and have decided
for me it was just slightly (wrong/too warm) glide wax
and slightly too much structure.
The stuff was right more-or-less for the temperatures,
but a bit on the warm side.
I think the main factor was a lot of wind-blown snow.
The times were rather slow in general; lots of people
did complain about glide. So maybe you weren't
as far off the mark in preparing your skis as you
might think.

My knowledge is not sufficient to comment
on the particular glide wax you used.
But here's a question :
Did you find the glide got much better after turning
off the parkway about 4 km from the end (for the 2nd time)?
Mine did, and that narrower trail would have
had little `problem' with wind-blown snow.

At this stage of my ski career, I should have
a more sophisticated approach perhaps,
but had I had enough foresight to have predicted
that wind-blown stuff,
I simply would have gone down
one notch with the glide wax, and especially
made sure to smooth out the structure.
Perhaps others here have good
knowledge on more subtle ways to prepare
skis for windy conditions with fresh snow around.

Your clumping up in the grip zone, if that's
what happened, is a separate issue.

Hope you get back to Canada next March!

Best, Peter




On Feb 28, 1:00 pm, wrote:
I am new to waxable classics this year and used them for the first
time at the Canadian Ski Marathon and the Keskinada. I seem to be
able to wax well for a decent kick (at least I was able to get up the
hills fairly well) but at the Keski my glide was poor after the first
10K or so. Previously, on the long downhills I found myself jumping
out of the tracks when I used my waxless -- at fast speeds I lost my
nerve. But this year the same tracks were never scary -- and I doubt
that it was because I had finally become a dare-devil downhill skier.
Ha! I simply never got to wicked speeds on the downhills this
year.

Comparing myself to others, in the first 10K I was keeping up well or
passing on the downhills. After that, I continued to lose ground,
though still did well climbing.

I used Toko Dibloc red in the glide zones, and a mix of VR40 over VR30
on top of a binder in the kick zone. Temps got warm -- upper 20s
Fahrenheit.

Any suggestions? Perhaps I put too many layers of kick wax on and the
skis dragged? The kick wax was too cold/warm? Sometimes it seemed
like snow was balling up under the ski. I brushed them off once.

There were a few white spots on the glide zones after the race, but
that didn't seem too unusual for a long race on newer skis. Or is
it?

As for fit, the skis are new as of December and were fitted by a
reputable shop.

Thanks for input!
Mary

On Mar 1, 5:29 pm, wrote:
Reading between the lines, when you say that you are new to waxable
classic skis, does this mean that you skied on "patterned" classic
skis that had faster glide, or are you comparing your classic skis to
skating skis?

I was referring to waxless classic skis with a pattern (though I do
the majority of skiing on skate skis -- I've just gotten into classic
after years of skate-ony).



If you glide comparison is between your new waxable classic skis and
"no-grip-wax" skis, how have you been preparing the glide zones of the
"no-grip-wax" skis? If you have both skis glide waxed and structured
the same way, then we would have to suspect either the grip wax or the
fit.

I prepped the glide zone on the waxless classics as I would my skate
skis: ironed in warm wax when they were new and then for a race a
cold wax, scraped and a wax appropriate for the day (and then scraped
and brushed). On the pattern I just did a rub on wax for no-wax
skis. It's the same thing I do for the skate skis (skipping the kick
zone of course).

Hello Mary,

Several of the other posts had good ideas about new ski glide zone
preparation - Warm wax saturation followed by several cold glide wax
iron and plastic scraper cycles to harden the base etc. I got a pair
of Atomics from Zack at the start of the season and had him do the
"extreme hotbox" treatment. The skis were fast out of the box.
(Thanks Zack).

After doing the glide zone preparation for you new skis, you may want
to test the new waxable classic skis against your old "no-wax" classic
skis and see how their glide compares.

One last thought is weight distribution during the downhill sections.
Your "no-wax" classics may be stiffer and/or have a higher weighted
camber than your new waxables. If you are getting your weight too far
forward on the downhill sections, you could be dragging your grip wax
if your new skis are soft. My old classic skis were soft and klister
would drag. By keeping my weight on my heels and lifting up at the
toes I could speed up my glide.

Edgar

PS The other variable could be base structure. Do you no-wax and
waxable skis have comparable base structures.

Edgar wrote
By keeping my weight on my heels and lifting up at the
toes I could speed up my glide.

Yes I think that's a helpful technique with most classic skis, for reducing
the frictional contribution of the grip zone, when your current objective is
to get faster glide. It transmits a higher proportion of your body weight
thru the glide wax sections of the base and a lower proportion thru the grip
wax section of the base.

Ken