A Snow and ski forum. SkiBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » SkiBanter forum » Skiing Newsgroups » Alpine Skiing
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Wedge vs. Stem; The Difference.



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old December 4th 04, 03:22 PM
gr
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

foot2foot wrote:
OK, Britt wants to know the difference, (he claims, maybe he
just wants more argument for argument's sake) and it actually
comes up all the time, you try to explain magic turns and sooner
or later somebody pipes up and says "yeahhh that's just the old
stem christy". But it's not.

People have for all modern skiing time learned to ski in a
wedge for the most part. The question then arose and still does,
how do you get the student to move from wedge turns into
making parallel turns, often called "matching the skis"?

Today, use magic turns.

To make a magic turn, traverse, make a wedge to set the
edges of both skis, transfer weight to the outside ski and
pick up the tail of the inside ski (while leaving the tip of the
inside ski on the snow) and put it back next to the outside ski.
Always hold hands well in front of you, shoulders square to
your direction of travel. Or, at first, keep the shoulders square
to the skis. Skiing is done with the legs, not the shoulders.

To do the old stem that comes out of the twenties or thirties,
traverse, put *all* the weight on the inside ski, (unnatural
and difficult at best), while leaving that inside ski in the traverse
path you're already on, extend the fully unweighted outside ski
to make a "v" shape with both skis, tips close, tails spread
apart. *THEN*, transfer all the weight from the inside ski
(if you haven't fallen over yet) to the *outside ski*, *THENNN*
pick up the inside ski and put it next to the outside ski, and
*TTTHHHENNNN* even out the weight onto both skis a
bit and turn.

Cmon. You *really* can't see the difference?


See, there's a lot of unnatural steps and extra motion
to the stem that doesn't happen if you initiate a turn
with a *wedge*. Right?

Serious replies only please. No subject changing,
small talk or giggle posts.

Pretty please?





Picking up from some of the discussion later in this thread, I was
wondering if some of the std turns and techniques will apply to snow blades.
I am an xc skier (classic, touring, hiking trails and such )and can
wedge turn and sort of get the second ski around for something that I
might believe is a parallel turn on my xc skis. This year I am trying
snowblades (thanks for the previous advice!) and have a pair of 120cm
(with releasable bindings!!).
Questions;
Do the same turn techniques apply that you are discussing, or are
snowblades just to far different?
I am guessing that if I learn the reasonably proper technique on the
short skis, I may someday want longer ones and want to be using the
proper technique.
Is a hockey stop still reasonable?
From an old book on short short skis I gather that making a parallel
turn is almost automatic, but does that induce bad habits? Also, seems
like the parallel is getting a lot of flak as being old fashioned (I
guess in favor of carver turns).
thanks!
GR
Ads
  #12  
Old December 4th 04, 04:24 PM
Dave M
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

foot2foot wrote:

"BrritSki" wrote in message
...


foot2foot wrote:


Cmon. You *really* can't see the difference?



Yes, thank you for the explanation.



Yo, no way....:?))))

Hmm, I guess I'll have to buy you and Dave M a beer apres ski.
Or would that be an ale?

If you want, I could dig up a 1930's explanation of how the
stem turn is/was done. A lot of instructors don't really know
or think about the difference.




I take a good Guinness, please. I need a good dinner after a day of skiing.

How young do you think this can start? Should someone, say four or five,
be doing this?

Dave M

  #13  
Old December 4th 04, 04:48 PM
Jon C
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

foot2foot wrote:

"Jon C" wrote in message

I'm a relatively new skier, but I never did the wedge thing. Still not
sure how it works really.



I would say that, after a while, when you're fairly confident
and able with your parallel skiing, you might want to learn to
wedge as well. Just about anyone can show it to you, or you
could get an idea about how it works by watching a class of
toddlers learn to ski. Put your skis in a 'V" shape, put more
weight on the outside ski. Use both big toe edges instead of
the big toe edge of the outside ski, and little toe edge of the
inside ski. You won't use it very often, but even the most
fearless extreme skier uses his or her wedge once in a while,
for example, to approach a dangerous drop and get into the
position they want to start the run from. Or, to control speed
in an extremely narrow but not too steep place where there's
really no room to turn.

But I wouldn't fool around with a wedge right away, since
you're doing so well straight to parallel. It might cause you
to lose progress for a while. I wouldn't even worry about
picking up the tail and leaving the tip on the snow anymore.
Of course, you never did.


I went from going straight and falling to hockey style stops, then
turned that into carving.



The hockey stop is often a key to learning parallel. The whole
secret to a skidded parallel turn is the same sideslip that you
learn via the hockey stop. It takes most people a while to
get this down. Most people can only stop at first my making
a turn all the way across and up the hill to a stop.

Basically, the skidded parallel turn involves getting all over
the tips, and skidding the tails around the tips to tighten up
the radius of your turn. It takes fairly fine edge control,
which you apparently already have.


I managed to turn just well enough to get by by hopping up a little bit
and just tossing the tails off to one side. Repeat on the other side.



This would be an up unweight. Give a little hop, change the
edges, and steer the skis as you wish. Advanced stuff really. I
personally still do not do it all that well. Great!


As I got a feel for the skis I'd "throw" the backs of the skis less and
let them curve a little bit.



The good, and rare thing about this is, you're talking about the
*tails* of the skis as the part of the ski that moves the most,
which means your pivot point is well forward on the skis. Most
want to stay in the backseat, which is ineffective and dangerous.
The best thing a new skier can do is to start, and stay well
forward on the skis. It's the job of the instructor to make sure
this happens.


Eventually I learned to just lean into the
ski the right way instead of actually trying to move it.



Now you're speaking of a "just crossover and edge" type of
turn. A *whole* lot of advanced for a new skier.

Absolutely great. Getting way forward on the ski is what
makes it easy for a new skier to turn, or any skier for that
matter.

You're an exceptional student, and obviously a very talented
skier. Go with exactly what you've been doing would be my
suggestion. You've gotten way past all the stuff like initiation
with a wedge and picking up the tail while leaving the tip
on the snow, and done it in no time at all.

There are some other simple things a more advance skier
can work on, once you get hungry again, perhaps they'd
be of interest to you.

There is one thing I might suggest you consider and play around
with as you ski. To turn right, your body must be on the right
side of the skis. To turn left, your body must be on the left side
of the skis. Maybe just a tiny bit, maybe a little more, depending
on the speed and radius of the turn. You're looking to move the
body ahead and down the hill toward the center of the next turn.
The typical term is a "diagonal" move of the body across the skis
and down the hill toward the center point of the next turn.

There's some flexion and extension most people like to put
in there, but you don't really *need* to do this at first. You
can always work it in if you wish.

And, one more thing, your hands must always be out in front
of you where you can see them. This is more important than
anything else.

Keep up the incredible progress!!



Er, I'm pretty confident in my skiing ability.. there are very few runs
in the east I won't bomb down, and all of those are steep glades or very
steep moguls/rocks. I've only been doing it a few years, but IMHO, I'm a
very good skier

I've seen the wedge a few times, mostly on people just learning, but
never been motivated to try it out. I'm still not
  #14  
Old December 4th 04, 06:38 PM
LePheaux
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"foot2foot" wrote in message
...
OK, Britt wants to know the difference, (he claims, maybe he
just wants more argument for argument's sake) and it actually
comes up all the time, you try to explain magic turns and sooner
or later somebody pipes up and says "yeahhh that's just the old
stem christy". But it's not.

People have for all modern skiing time learned to ski in a
wedge for the most part. The question then arose and still does,
how do you get the student to move from wedge turns into
making parallel turns, often called "matching the skis"?

Today, use magic turns.

To make a magic turn, traverse, make a wedge to set the
edges of both skis, transfer weight to the outside ski and
pick up the tail of the inside ski (while leaving the tip of the
inside ski on the snow) and put it back next to the outside ski.
Always hold hands well in front of you, shoulders square to
your direction of travel. Or, at first, keep the shoulders square
to the skis. Skiing is done with the legs, not the shoulders.

To do the old stem that comes out of the twenties or thirties,
traverse, put *all* the weight on the inside ski, (unnatural
and difficult at best), while leaving that inside ski in the traverse
path you're already on, extend the fully unweighted outside ski
to make a "v" shape with both skis, tips close, tails spread
apart. *THEN*, transfer all the weight from the inside ski
(if you haven't fallen over yet) to the *outside ski*, *THENNN*
pick up the inside ski and put it next to the outside ski, and
*TTTHHHENNNN* even out the weight onto both skis a
bit and turn.


I don't think it could have been explained any better.
BTW you say you ski the North Wet.
when can I get you out here to the Seattle area to do some turns, and maybe
have you give my second year*skiers a lookover and a tuneup?
I'll pick up your ticket /lunch and beer.


  #15  
Old December 4th 04, 06:40 PM
LePheaux
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Dmitry" wrote in message
news:Icesd.188394$HA.145589@attbi_s01...

"foot2foot" wrote

People have for all modern skiing time learned to ski in a
wedge for the most part. The question then arose and still does,
how do you get the student to move from wedge turns into
making parallel turns, often called "matching the skis"?

Serious replies only please. No subject changing,
small talk or giggle posts.


I'm really serious: why is it such a big deal? I've
witnessed no less than five people of very different
background start skiing parallel on their first or
second day with very little external influence. They
all had grave problems with more difficult terrain though,
and for that magic turns (I really hate your nomenclature)
probably won't do anything.

I could understand something like this when learning
to snowboard (in fact, that would be really great and
save a lot of broken tailbones), but for skis it should
only be good for reeeeally athletically challanged
chikens.


It's OK dumbass We know you don't catch on quick if at all.


  #16  
Old December 4th 04, 08:27 PM
foot2foot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"gr" wrote in message


Picking up from some of the discussion later in this thread, I was
wondering if some of the std turns and techniques will apply to snow

blades.
I am an xc skier (classic, touring, hiking trails and such )and can
wedge turn and sort of get the second ski around for something that I
might believe is a parallel turn on my xc skis. This year I am trying
snowblades (thanks for the previous advice!) and have a pair of 120cm
(with releasable bindings!!).
Questions;
Do the same turn techniques apply that you are discussing, or are
snowblades just to far different?


No, snowblades allow you to do things that take a while to
learn on longer skis almost immediately. The king of all short
skis, Cliff Taylor, taught students to do the "twist" (the old
dance) in order to turn. Shoulders go one way, hips and
skis go the other. Back and forth, maybe a little flexion and
extension, then you're turning.

Short skis are a fairly effective way of learning direct to parallel.
Now, being able to pick up the tail of a ski and leave the tip on
the snow applies on blades as well, but, aside of learning body
position, you don't need to do it, you can just steer the shorter
skis in parallel anyway.

It wouldn't *hurt* to play around with the wedge a bit on
blades, as I've said, sooner or later, anyone will need a wedge.

I am guessing that if I learn the reasonably proper technique on the
short skis, I may someday want longer ones and want to be using the
proper technique.


No question. The shorties have limitations. But they are a kick
as well....

While you're still on the blades, you can learn things like
rotation/counter rotation, angulation, and some others. These
will translate directly to longer skis.

Is a hockey stop still reasonable?


Yes, learn to sideslip on them as well, and slip your turns. All
these things are well possible on blades, it's just that you can't
go as deep, fast, or forward on the shorter skis. Cut up snow
will beat you to death at speed.

From an old book on short short skis I gather that making a parallel
turn is almost automatic, but does that induce bad habits?


There's no such thing as a bad habit. : ). There's only what
you know how to do now, and what you can add to it. Don't
ever let anyone put you into a box. I don't think there's
*anything* "bad" you can do on a pair of skis.

Also, seems
like the parallel is getting a lot of flak as being old fashioned (I
guess in favor of carver turns).


People are dreaming. And kidding themselves. Skidded turns
are at least half of skiing. On extremely steep terrain, if you
carve, you'll accellerate right off a cliff. You have to slip the
skis. Same thing in moguls. Slipping the skis is important. Not
only that, but a pure carve is mostly a goal, not a possiblility.
You can't carve much below a certain radius depending on
the cut of the skis and the length. If you bend the front of the
ski you can shorten the turn up some and still carve, but there's
always a limit.

The turns I need to do to get further certified as an instructor
are basically skidded turns. Carving is mostly a racing thing,
done on a predictable, set course designed to be carved.
When you need to take the mountain the way it comes at you,
you need to be able to slip as well as carve.

thanks!
GR


Stay in touch.


  #17  
Old December 4th 04, 08:27 PM
foot2foot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"miles" wrote in message
news:L5ksd.174343$bk1.120595@fed1read05...

Many ski schools are now teaching parallel turns from the very 1st day.
They do so by teaching with very short skis and no ski poles. With
the shorter skis and new teaching methods people are learning at a far
faster pace.


This is a solution many schools use to get the brand new skier
up on the blues in a very short time. In my experience, it's
useful, but it's kind of a cheat. The skier ends up needing to
learn the things they'll need to learn to ski on long skis anyway,
with or without a start on shorties. But by that time they're
hooked, which is the important thing.

A student that has bladed will probably not need to wedge
on longer skis, but learning to pick up the tail of the inside ski
(then moving on to other ways to match the skis) will, as will
getting farther forward on the longer skis at first be really
helpful


  #18  
Old December 4th 04, 08:28 PM
foot2foot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Dave M" wrote in message

How young do you think this can start? Should someone, say four or five,
be doing this?

Dave M


If you're speaking abou the skiing, before age six you run into
a child who thinks magically. Everything is fantasy and they really
can't understand cause and effect. As such you have to make
learning into game and fantasy. After about age six, they move into
concrete thinking, and you can explain and they understand.
Otherwise, yes. You want them in home position, and forward on
the skis.



  #19  
Old December 4th 04, 08:36 PM
foot2foot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"LePheaux" wrote in message
...

I don't think it could have been explained any better.
BTW you say you ski the North Wet.


The *whole* NW. More the east north west now, for the
quality of the snow, and the scary wilderness, old times
atmosphere factors.

when can I get you out here to the Seattle area to do some turns, and

maybe
have you give my second year*skiers a lookover and a tuneup?
I'll pick up your ticket /lunch and beer.


You're more likely to catch me in Canada, Wyoming, Idaho
or Montana this year. But, the beauty of this system is, you
*can* explain it in text or aloud, and people can use it.

For more experienced skiers, you can teach to the mechanics
of skiing.

The real trick comes in watching the skier and figuring out
what's wrong. Are they skiing with their shoulders, hands
falling back, leaning to the outside, or inside too far? Are
they rotating all the way through the turn? Could they
use more flexion and extension, can they steer effectively?

Etc. But, when people have the magic turns framework, they
can do it. I know of a ten year old (eleven this year) who
teaches magic turns and makes skiers out of beginners.

He's starting to pick up on the mechanics of the ski, and
how to help more advanced skiers by teaching to them.


  #20  
Old December 4th 04, 08:40 PM
foot2foot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"BrritSki" wrote in message


foot2foot wrote:


Way. I can see what you mean by the difference. I'm not sure that anyone
ever did a pure stem though or the results would have been as you say,
arse over tit. I would guess that most people did some combination of
the stem and the wedge naturally to avoid this, but I'm not an
instructor and I learnt a long time ago in Italy so it's hard for me to
remember.

Hmm, I guess I'll have to buy you and Dave M a beer apres ski.
Or would that be an ale?


Either.


If you want, I could dig up a 1930's explanation of how the
stem turn is/was done. A lot of instructors don't really know
or think about the difference.

No. Please don't.


Sadly enough, I probably will end up doing this sooner or later.


BTW, I think you misunderstand why I and others have a go at you. It's
not because I necessarily think that everything you say is wrong. It is
good to see someone post about ski technique and argue their case. The
problem is that you are so dogmatic and long-winded and don't understand
or won't accept some widely accepted facets of physics and statistics.

Have some fun skiing if there's any snow near you. My daughter is having
fun in Val d'Isere this weekend and I'll be kicking off my season next
weekend in Verbier.


Thanks for the input and the vote of confidence Britt. See you
on the white.


 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
New thread LAL, PSIA wedge. foot2foot Alpine Skiing 10 November 28th 04 11:35 PM
Time Machine, 1930's -The Pure Stem foot2foot Alpine Skiing 12 May 28th 04 07:26 PM
difference Solden- Ischgl Nigel (Remove NOSPAM) European Ski Resorts 6 March 17th 04 11:55 AM
The difference swing weight makes Jeff Potter Nordic Skiing 0 November 8th 03 03:07 PM
M/L Binding? Is there a huge difference? John Snowboarding 7 October 27th 03 07:04 PM


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 SkiBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.