Vino

Check the archives, JT. Doping across sports has been discussed on this
group many times over the years. The same tests, many of the same
competitive and financial pressures, the same official procedures, etc.,
apply across sports. When there's an incident or problem in one sport,
it usually affects or has implications for the others. Probably more
than any sport, cycling - and the TdF - has been driving the regulation
and testing for drugs, as well as police involvement.

Take the Vino case. I hope it turns out to be something else, but on
the face of it when an athlete goes way faster than everyone else, such
as the time trial last Saturday, then there's a reasonable basis for
suspicion. Much like many had with Muehlegg at the 02 Olys. Also I
wonder about some of these other cases. Are the cyclists really that
stupid, desperate for the next contract (hoping they won't be tested
that day), or is there something wrong with the science (or some
combination of those)? I'm wondering if Rasmussen is a case of someone
who screwed around during training to build up endurance, then went
clean for the event. While that's speculation, one could imagine a
cross-country skier with their own coach trying to pull a similar
disappearing act.

rm

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:

On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 14:11:42 -0700, wrote:

Doping is very much on topic for this board. More than likely the same
thing is going on iin the ski world. It is the sad reality that must
be faced.

There was nothing related to skiing in the post. If you want to talk
about doping in skiing, go ahead. Or if you want to relate something
specific in cycling to skiing go ahead. But not posts just about
cycling.

There are lots of things in life that relate in a loose sense to
skiing, but that doesn't mean we should discuss them here.

Most skiers pay taxes. Should I post about taxes?

On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 22:40:44 -0500, wrote:

Check the archives, JT. Doping across sports has been discussed on this
group many times over the years. The same tests, many of the same
competitive and financial pressures, the same official procedures, etc.,
apply across sports.

You and Galanes are putting words in my mouth by suggesting I said
doping can't be discussed here and then knocking that statement down.
That's a straw man argument and is false. The first post in this
thread, to which I responded, said nothing about skiing.

If you want to talk about doping in skiing, or even how doping in
skiing relates to doping in cycling go ahead.

If you talk about Tour de France alone, it's off topic and you guys
should just shut up rather than doing it and defending it.

--
JT
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John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
This is off topic for this group.

Definitely on topic from my point of view. Two sports plagued by the public
conception that they are dopers sports at the highest levels.

Both Governing Bodies claim to be anti doping and profess to be trying to
eradicate the cheats.
Both sports support WADA.

We the supporters of these sports want a clean sport, we want to be able to
put our children through years of practice, training and racing programmes
without the fear that sometime down the line our child is going to be
pressured to cheat by some coach, manager or sponsor - 'For the good of the
Team my son'.

This years Tour is not a failure as portrayed by our media, the transgressions
and dismissals of Moroni and Rasmusson are just the latest successes in the
plan to have a clean sport.

The bags of blood from the doping doctors store now held by the police for
eventual identification of the donors may not be from cycling but from some
other sport.

Sorry to hijack this thread but theres a lot more on anti doping on the FIS page,
including this
http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/fisanti-do...ping-quiz.html

Mike

If you read the archives (history of rsn), you'll find that no one is
putting words in your mouth. You've simply taken on a new role that,
at least in this case, others don't agree with. In your concern, you
could have posted comments that steered the discussion by relating it
directly to x-c skiing.

rm

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:

On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 22:40:44 -0500, wrote:

Check the archives, JT. Doping across sports has been discussed on
this group many times over the years. The same tests, many of the
same competitive and financial pressures, the same official
procedures, etc., apply across sports.

You and Galanes are putting words in my mouth by suggesting I said
doping can't be discussed here and then knocking that statement down.
That's a straw man argument and is false. The first post in this
thread, to which I responded, said nothing about skiing.

If you want to talk about doping in skiing, or even how doping in
skiing relates to doping in cycling go ahead.

If you talk about Tour de France alone, it's off topic and you guys
should just shut up rather than doing it and defending it.

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 08:12:07 -0500, wrote:

If you read the archives (history of rsn), you'll find that no one is
putting words in your mouth.

You are with your reference to check the archives to show that doping
is OK to talk about in this group. This is subtle, perhaps even
unconscious shift to refute what I said that is unrelated to what I
said.

Talking about cycling specifically and not relating it to skiing is
off-topic to this group. That's a fact. People can ignore that the
same way people run lights, push people out of the way on the street,
whatever. They do that sometimes. It's still not right.

"Doping across sports has been discussed on
this group many times over the years."

Unless the poster relates it to skiing, it's off topic.

--
JT
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On Jul 25, 5:42 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote:
If you want to talk about cycling, talk about it in a cycling
newsgroup.

I know almost everyone in this group cares about global poverty, taxes
and cancer (or at least should), but I don't bring them up here.
--
JT
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Visithttp://www.jt10000.com
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Someone should start a new doping newsgroup because the bicycle racing
newsgroup is a meannnnn place to hang out! Those guys don't just throw
darts, they shoot bullets, some might say rocket launchers at those
they don't agree with. So, maybe it's not sooo bad to discuss the TDF
doping scandal here...

Jay Tegeder
"On the podium if the right people don't show up!" JT
p.s. only one podium this year out of 12 bike races...

Someone should start a new doping newsgroup because the bicycle
racing
newsgroup is a meannnnn place to hang out! Those guys don't just throw
darts, they shoot bullets, some might say rocket launchers at those
they don't agree with. So, maybe it's not sooo bad to discuss the TDF
doping scandal here...

Jay Tegeder
"On the podium if the right people don't show up!" JT
p.s. only one podium this year out of 12 bike races...

Speaking of doping at the TDF, I think Vino is guilty as is Rasmussen.
You don't skip four out of competition drug tests and lie about your
whereabouts if you're innocent. Right? As for Tyler Hamilton and Floyd
Landis, count me in the camp who think they're guilty. Floyd should
have said the French were out to get him. I might have bought that
one. Bringing it back to skiing. Nathan Schultz had an encounter with
Tyler out in Colorado. Nathan ran into him at a party or something. I
think he was cordial to Hamilton but then ripped him on his blog the
next day or so. I would have walked up to Hamilton and told him to his
face that I think he was a cheat. But, I would have said it in a
cordial way. Like; Hey Tyler! Your foundation has done tons of great
things for a lot of people. I think you cheated in the Olympics and
the Vuelta Espana. That doesn't mean you can't reform your cheating
ways though... How about a beer? Let's discuss your telling the truth
to the media tomorrow. It will be great to get it off your mind. Then,
we can discuss who you worked with in Operation Puerto...

Jay Tegeder
"Stick around this sport long enough and you'll beat everyone at least
once! JT

John, I personally view this newsgroup as an online version of a chat
in a wax room/a chat during an easy rollerski workout. If I approach
you at Van Ho and say - hey, what do you think about the snafus at the
TdF - would you tell me that it's an off-topic and skiers should only
talk about skiing? I know, I know, this is just my view of it, and
there are rules of the newsgroup. But these are just merely rules.
After all, Jan's post did generate responses from TdF fans which shows
that perhaps it was not an off-topic after all. As well as cancer,
poverty, world peace, etc. One can come up with a scenario/context
when these topics come up in a XC skiing group and not seem like an
off-topic.

wrote:

Someone should start a new doping newsgroup because the bicycle racing
newsgroup is a meannnnn place to hang out! Those guys don't just throw
darts, they shoot bullets, some might say rocket launchers at those
they don't agree with. So, maybe it's not sooo bad to discuss the TDF
doping scandal here...

Well, as a rollerskier you must know how many of them give warning
before passing on narrow trails.

runcycleski wrote:
"I personally view this newsgroup as an online version of a chat in a wax
room/a chat during an easy rollerski workout."

Well said!! I agree.
I guess I have not read the RULES... but I do know that if someone has
posted off-topic and little narrow minded me doesn't want to read it... I
can skip it.
keep the conversations coming and I'll pick and choose what I read.
Thanks,
Randy