Universal Toko Wax as a basic layer

Anyone used Toko Molybdenum universal wax (not LF/HF) as a base layer
for warm and dirty snow conditions? I like the fact that it contains
molybdenum and that it is cheap If I put HF product on top of it,
will it stay?

I bet you should use green klister or other definite base wax for a
binder. Is this what you meant? You want a BINDER? If so, use one---or
green klister. Man, fooling with binders means LOSING YOUR WAX by and
large. So just do it right. Maybe Universal could be a base...on top of
a binder (green klister is probably the best really). Keep your kick!

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of do-it-yourself culture ... bikes, skis, boats & more! ...

... offering Vordenberg's XC ski tales in "Momentum"! ...
... "The Recumbent Bicycle": the only book about these bikes! ...
... Rudloe's "Potluck": true-life story of workingclass smuggling! ...

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Anyone used Toko Molybdenum universal wax (not LF/HF) as a base layer
for warm and dirty snow conditions? I like the fact that it contains
molybdenum and that it is cheap If I put HF product on top of it,
will it stay?

Jeff Potter wrote:

I bet you should use green klister or other definite base wax for a
binder. Is this what you meant? You want a BINDER? If so, use one---or
green klister. Man, fooling with binders means LOSING YOUR WAX by and
large. So just do it right. Maybe Universal could be a base...on top of
a binder (green klister is probably the best really). Keep your kick!


Toko has two "Universal" glide waxes with the range
of 0 to -30C. One is a regular/non-fluoro in a white colour.
The other is black in colour because of the molybdenum in it.
So he wasn't writing about kick wax.

I haven't used the universal as a base layer for glide.
It's probably is okay. I'd default to using something else.

Rodney

"Rodney/SkiWax.ca" wrote:

[ ]
So he wasn't writing about kick wax.

Oops! Sorry, klister on the brain. I heard the words Toko, universal,
klister and binder a LOT last weekend. Music to my ears.

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of do-it-yourself culture ... bikes, skis, boats & more! ...
... offering Vordenberg's XC ski tales in "Momentum"! ...
... "The Recumbent Bicycle": the only book about these bikes! ...
... Rudloe's "Potluck": true-life story of workingclass smuggling! ...
... with radical novels coming up via LiteraryRevolution.com! ...
... music! ... articles! ... travel forums! ... WOW! 800-763-6923

(TahoeXCSkier) wrote in message . com...

Anyone used Toko Molybdenum universal wax (not LF/HF) as a base layer
for warm and dirty snow conditions? I like the fact that it contains
molybdenum and that it is cheap If I put HF product on top of it,
will it stay?

Why would you want to put HF on top of it? The "All-in-one"
is IMHO well worth its name - at least for the recreational,
modestly ambitiout and/or lazy skier.

OTOH if óne needs/wants a fluor product on top, I suppose one
might just as well begin with a Dibloc LF/HF Grey Molybdenum
base.


Anders (who for once has actual "snow experience" here)

(Anders Lustig) wrote in message . com...

Why would you want to put HF on top of it? The "All-in-one"
is IMHO well worth its name - at least for the recreational,
modestly ambitiout and/or lazy skier.

OTOH if óne needs/wants a fluor product on top, I suppose one
might just as well begin with a Dibloc LF/HF Grey Molybdenum
base.


Anders (who for once has actual "snow experience" here)

Well, the idea behind using an "all-in-one" wax underneath was that
since the weather/snow is warm and humidity is high, using LF product
as a base layer would probably not be necessary (LF is good for low
humidity). So the reasons a LF Moly may not be appropriate, HF
Moly - too expensive for base layer. And since conditions are
warm/wet, don't have much choice for the top layer (HF). Does this
make any sense? Oh, and I though about using all-in-one Moly
instead of some paraffin wax just because of molybdenum additive,
which is good in these conditions.
Anyways, I am willing to try this this coming weekend and I'll post my
impressions.

"TahoeXCSkier" wrote in message
om...
(Anders Lustig) wrote in message
. com...

Why would you want to put HF on top of it? The "All-in-one"
is IMHO well worth its name - at least for the recreational,
modestly ambitiout and/or lazy skier.

OTOH if óne needs/wants a fluor product on top, I suppose one
might just as well begin with a Dibloc LF/HF Grey Molybdenum
base.


Anders (who for once has actual "snow experience" here)

Well, the idea behind using an "all-in-one" wax underneath was that
since the weather/snow is warm and humidity is high, using LF product
as a base layer would probably not be necessary (LF is good for low
humidity). So the reasons a LF Moly may not be appropriate, HF
Moly - too expensive for base layer. And since conditions are
warm/wet, don't have much choice for the top layer (HF). Does this
make any sense? Oh, and I though about using all-in-one Moly
instead of some paraffin wax just because of molybdenum additive,
which is good in these conditions.
Anyways, I am willing to try this this coming weekend and I'll post my
impressions.

Here's my take as a back-of-the-packer... and I have and use the "all in
one" moly. I use the Toko black all in one exactly the same as I used to
use plain graphite waxes.

I use it as either a base layer or an additive to either CH (I use CH as a
generic term for non-fluro waxes) or LF waxes. I used to have some either
Start or Swix graphite which I did the same with, but now that Moly is hip,
I use it instead.

If it's CH conditions (cold and dry), and I think moly is in order, I just
wax over it with CH wax of the day or add it to the CH wax of the day.

For fluro conditions, I'd either use the "all in one" as a stand alone layer
with an LF layer over it , or as a moly additive to the LF layer. If I
were using Toko LF moly, I'd go directly from it to HF, which I understand
is a fairly common thing to do.

I personally have gotten away from using LF as a top layer. To me, it's
either CH conditions or fluro conditions. If it's fluro conditions, I go
with HF. To me, the only use for LF is as an intermediate layer to better
bind the HF to the CH wax in the base (I could easily be wrong, but that's
the theory I happen to follow).

I have no idea if this is world-class waxing, but what the hey, it seems to
make sense to me.

Grissy

(TahoeXCSkier) wrote in message
Anyone used Toko Molybdenum universal wax (not LF/HF) as a base layer
for warm and dirty snow conditions?
HF Moly - too expensive for base layer. And since conditions are
warm/wet, don't have much choice for the top layer (HF).

I use the Toko All-in-One Moly as a base prep for some of my skis. It
is a very good, low cost alternative to the LF/HF products. In some
cases, it performs well (and is recommended by Toko) by it self as the
choice for certain snow and humidity conditions - see Toko's wax
charts.

For warm/wet and dirty snow, though, an HF Moly is clearly the best
choice for base prep under an HF Yellow. Here's the kicker - if you
do not have a wet grind on your skis, nothing you wax with is gonna
seem very fast!

- Bob

"Griss" wrote in message news:c2qggr$1v8psm$1@ID- Here's my take as a back-of-the-packer... and I have and use the "all in
one" moly. I use the Toko black all in one exactly the same as I used to
use plain graphite waxes.

I use it as either a base layer or an additive to either CH (I use CH as a
generic term for non-fluro waxes) or LF waxes. I used to have some either
Start or Swix graphite which I did the same with, but now that Moly is hip,
I use it instead.

If it's CH conditions (cold and dry), and I think moly is in order, I just
wax over it with CH wax of the day or add it to the CH wax of the day.

For fluro conditions, I'd either use the "all in one" as a stand alone layer
with an LF layer over it , or as a moly additive to the LF layer. If I
were using Toko LF moly, I'd go directly from it to HF, which I understand
is a fairly common thing to do.

I personally have gotten away from using LF as a top layer. To me, it's
either CH conditions or fluro conditions. If it's fluro conditions, I go
with HF. To me, the only use for LF is as an intermediate layer to better
bind the HF to the CH wax in the base (I could easily be wrong, but that's
the theory I happen to follow).

I have no idea if this is world-class waxing, but what the hey, it seems to
make sense to me.

Grissy


All this makes perfect sense to me. I am also trying to avoid LF as a
top layer: LF seems to make little difference, especially in wet
conditions. I've tried Swix, Toko and Solda wax so far, and I am also
going to test Star. I heard great reviews of Star's base waxes (MAP
black and MAP 200), but the price of these waxes is just ridiculous,
especially since they don't seem to contain any fluoro. Skiing last
weekend was frustrating: it was below freezing in the morning, so my
highly fluorinated wax got "scraped-off" by hard/icy snow, and at
around 10 a.m. it started melting. At 11 a.m. it was water skiing and
my wax wore off (Solda F20 yellow, 2-yr old High Fluoro wax).
Although the snow didn't look dirty, a lot of dirt accumulated on the
base. So I am going to try all-in-one moly as an underlayer, and,
possibly, MAP200 on Sunday (although I prefer skiing to waxing every
day).

My team uses the Toko universal moly, primarily because it has a much lower
minimum temperature than their LF/HF moly. I can't give any advice concerning
its effectiveness in warmer conditions because the only time we used it this
winter (other than to refresh skis) was a -10F - -5F weekend. The courses we
used it on had some pine needles and residue from grooming machines on the
trails. Due to low humidity most of our team did not go with LF Blue or HF Blue
over it, choosing Start Green instead. Our skis were dogs on the warmer day
(10k/15k skate), but were ok on the colder day (3x5k classic relay). Not great,
just ok.

In hindsight we should have tested a Universal Moly/Toko CH Blue mix or LF
Moly/Start Green mix. If it's possible I think we waxed too cold for the
conditions. That sounds stupid considering how cold it was, but I believe it to
be true. We did have one racer on Univ Moly/CH Blue and her skis were the best
of anyone.

As previously mentioned in this thread, some Moly and good structure sound like
the key for your current conditions.