Trond Lays it Out

Very good interview with Trond Nystad on fasterskier.com this morning.
Probably going to **** off quite a few people but maybe that is what we
need.

Trond says most don't know what 850 hours of training looks like. Anyone
out here know? Obviously the math is simple but how much of that is low
level and how does someone like Trond define low level.

Dave

On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 08:35:43 -0500, "DMK"
wrote:

Very good interview with Trond Nystad on fasterskier.com this morning.
Probably going to **** off quite a few people but maybe that is what we
need.

Trond says most don't know what 850 hours of training looks like. Anyone
out here know?

I can speculate. I know what 20 hours in a week and what 35 hours in
two weeks is like (with 30-35 hours of dayjob work each week and no
social life) Took a lot of planning to pull that off and the next week
was like 7 hours. With a lot of day-job.

850? With no work or family responsiblities and a decent support
system of massage, good food, etc that would be very doable. But how
may skiers in the US have that luxury?

JFT

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On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 08:57:31 -0500, John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote:

I can speculate. I know what 20 hours in a week and what 35 hours in
two weeks is like (with 30-35 hours of dayjob work each week and no
social life) Took a lot of planning to pull that off and the next week
was like 7 hours. With a lot of day-job.


Oh, this was for cycling, not skiing, and was in February and March in
bad weather for the sport, though a third of the athletic activity was
indoors.

JFT

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DMK wrote:
Very good interview with Trond Nystad on fasterskier.com this morning.
Probably going to **** off quite a few people but maybe that is what we
need.

Trond says most don't know what 850 hours of training looks like. Anyone
out here know? Obviously the math is simple but how much of that is low
level and how does someone like Trond define low level.

When I was seriously into rock climbing, in my third year at university,
I kept a training diary:

18 hours/week of climbing/gymnastics, plus skiing, running,
orienteering, volleyball, kayak and some (board) diving.

Adding it all together would have put me well over 25 hours/week which
is in the right ballpark. :-)

I got pretty decent grades at the same time, but I did _not_ have a
girlfriend. :-(

Terje

--
-
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

One thing I notice in a few elite reports is that they don't count
certain kinds of hours. The standard that they used seemed a little
harsh or unrealistic or even like it would thwart what hours to meant
to be used for, but they're the pro's. Maybe such things as the various
"kinds" of hours take on a whole new meaning for these folks. I don't
recall exact examples right now but it seemed like fairly sizeable
workouts would end up being tagged as lots smaller. --JP

The context of my reaction to Jason's plaint about Newell not getting
the whoop-de-doo on rsn can be found here in the Nystad interview:

Q: Do you take issue then with American coaches?

A: I take issue with them in that they are too proud to admit something
could be done better. Their incompetence comes in insisting their way
is the only way. There are a million ways to become a good skier, but
every which way requires hard work. American coaches are absolutely
horrible at working together. Every coach seems to be fending for their
own turf, to be their own chief of their own little tribe. This is the
biggest problem, people are too proud to work together. So many people
with good ideas; yet so many with an in-ability to listen to others.


I don't know what Trond's views are or have been toward his staff,
which is only part of what's probably being alluded to in this comment.
For me, since the beginning I've found it hard to get excited about a
team that has been fronted publicly, and is now being led, by someone
who, by his own admission, mentally dropped out of school in junior
high and whose major accomplishments in the past several years have been
self-promotion into national ski team leadership and mass marketing of
quack ski technique to fawners, the ignorant and those who ought to have
known better.

Along with the interview of Trond, I encourage all to read Dick
(Richard) Taylor's book "No Pain, No Gain?," which can be bought
directly from him (Gould Academy) or at Akers:
http://www.akers-ski.com/Merchant2/m...ct_Cod e=7810.
Jeff, this is the book that you should have published.

Gene




"DMK" wrote:

Very good interview with Trond Nystad on fasterskier.com this
morning. Probably going to **** off quite a few people but maybe that
is what we need.

Trond says most don't know what 850 hours of training looks like.
Anyone out here know? Obviously the math is simple but how much of
that is low level and how does someone like Trond define low level.

Dave

Even if you count every second that is remotely connected to training,
850 hours is very, very hard to get. That averages out to 2 hours and
20 minutes per day, if you don't take any rest days. Take one rest day
every week and it approaches 2:45 per day.

I believe Trond is not trying to say that athletes have a different
standard of counting hours, just that not enough people can even
comprehend what 850 hours is like. It requires very talented athletes
with a huge training background and a supportive training environment.

On 20 Mar 2006 14:51:14 -0800, "Nathan Schultz"
wrote:

Even if you count every second that is remotely connected to training,
850 hours is very, very hard to get. That averages out to 2 hours and
20 minutes per day, if you don't take any rest days. Take one rest day
every week and it approaches 2:45 per day.

Yeah, I figured basically 3+ hours a day with two days "off" each week
of simple recovery stuff -- half an hour or an hour on those days.
But that's just average.

I'd think that with this sort of program you'd have blocks of weeks of
4+ hours a day (20-25 hours a week, or maybe even a few with 30!) for
awhile, and then down to an easy weeks of "just" 10 or 12 for key
events or recovery. And a couple times a year maybe 4 or 5 hours
(sick/injured or vacation).

It's a lot. And doing it with enough intensity and recovery built in
to get something out of it for high-level performance -- that takes a
lot of discipline and support and a good environment. And two-a-days
often. And you'd better like training and love being outside.

And not waste time. If every workout involves standing around for an
hour it won't work. If you're partying or staying up late it won't
work -- you'll be sick or slow.

I tried to 650 hrs/year for two seasons of bike racing and that was
*hard.* And I was counting time spent strength training in the gym
(but not stretching). I don't think I made it -- I slacked off
big-time in the recovery month I took at the end of each season and
ended up with about 620. And I don't think I was able to really digest
that amount of training -- I was tired a lot of the time -- but I was
able to hit a few peaks. And I had very little social life outside of
sport. The upshot? I was an OK regional-level athlete.

The numbers Nystand mention as critical to international success don't
surprise me.

I also think that big number of hours would be esp hard in sports
where running is a component -- that really breaks down the body.
Swimming and cycling are not so hard to just sit out there. Skiing
not too bad, but what about dryland training for skiing?

JFT

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I agree. I'd brought up something different. I'd just read in a couple
places where skiers weren't counting certain portions of workouts that
definitely seemed like part of the workout to me. Maybe it was in
Pete's Momentum book, but I saw a report of someone else doing this,
too. Maybe for people who are so used to training that THEY know when
running should count toward their goals and when it shouldn't. I guess
I can remember back that far ago to when running in the easier zones
was just as easy as walking for me. But I recall Pete maybe not
including his runs back down the mountain in with his hill-bounding
workouts, or something like that. I could see that being excluded from
the actual interval period. Oh well. The elites have their own ways.
--JP

I also once got inspired to step up the level, but didn't find it
physically tiring---but I probably still wasn't halfway to the big
hours. 2-6 hrs a day, though. (I recall being part of a study during
this time and the top XC skiers were indeed putting in many more
hours.)

I recall finding the social life to be humorous---I'd meet different
people out on rides. Also, managing the daylight hours was funny at
times: to get in a good meal, I'd stuff my pockets with food and go for
a ride. I didn't have a totally detailed plan but I just naturally
found myself avoiding downtime---I just liked to be outside doing
things. I had a job---but also flexibility, being self-employed (making
and selling books). So when it was lunchtime I wouldn't just sit and
eat but would grab food and go for another ride. I was tired of being
inside anyway. But that just seemed funny---it was sometimes my biggest
meal of the day. Or I'd do 3 rides in a day---meeting up with 3
different groups of people. You can "take meetings" on a bike.

Mentally, tho, things got a bit blurred. My body was often moving. It
got so that I had to look down to see what I was doing: OK, I'm on a
bike now. A whirl of several activities a day for a year solid can get
to be just that: a whirl. XC does use a nice variety of activities for
staying in shape, though, which keeps things fresher.

As regards partying: training and wanting best performance sure makes
partying a non-starter. I remember reading that the bike-racing
McCormack brothers were wild Irish guys---then I found out that 'wild'
meant like one beer a week during the off-season, none in summer. I
also found that I really couldn't have a beer during race season. One
beer and I'd go slower and may well catch a cold: it was surprising how
sensitive the system became.

--JP