Stopping and Turning (redux)

Picking up a post and article of Nathan's from 2/20/05 re downhill
technique. In discussing the different turns, it says, "Think of the
Skate Turn as the inside ski doing a step turn while the outside ski is
marathon skating." Is this marathon skate technique turn allowed when
out of the tracks on downhill turns in classical races?

Gene

---------------
Hi Randy,

Here is an article I wrote for Master Skier a few years ago. It
might help a bit. Hopefully the formatting won't be too messed up. If
you want a cleaner copy, email me directly and I'll send you a PDF or
something.

Good Luck,

Nathan
www.nsavage.com

One of the most surprising things I have learned from coaching is how
little most cross-country skiers know about descending. Even expert
skiers who have spent countless hours honing technique often have no
concept of how to descend and corner.

Downhills should be fun, not scary. Learning to descend with
confidence and speed is actually quite simple, and with a little
knowledge and practice most people make dramatic improvements in a very
short time.

As with all skiing techniques, proper descending starts with the correct
body position. This fundamental position is a relaxed stance with feet
slightly wider than shoulder-width apart, with a lowered center of
gravity created by bending at the knees and ankles. The upper body and
arms should be forward, leading with the hands at roughly stomach- to
chest-level. This position creates a stable, dynamic platform that
maximizes balance and control. By staying relaxed, one can soak up
terrain changes, while the wide stance allows initiation of
comfortable, stable turns and quick lateral movement when needed.

To get comfortable with this position, begin on a flat trail at low
speed. A very wide trail or Alpine hill is best to give room to
experiment and allow for the inevitable errors. Gradually increase the
speed and steepness as you become more confident.

Once you have mastered the basic position, you can increase speed and
stability by lowering into an aerodynamic tuck. You can move between
the tuck and fundamental downhill position when corners and other
obstacles present themselves.

From the basic downhill position, create a tuck by bending at the knees
and waist so the back is horizontal. Look forward, placing hands in
front of the mouth and resting the elbows on the thighs, just behind
the knees. Poles should rest in the fold of the waist and be
horizontal, not sticking straight up as seen in countless
back-of-the-pack Birkie photos. To maximize speed and also get a nice
leg burn, move lower by putting the elbows in front of the knees.

Once you can hurl yourself at top-speed downhill comfortably, it's time
to learn how to negotiate those pesky corners lurking at the bottom.
Approach all corners in the same way: relax, check body position, and
look where you want to go, not at the scary things you want to avoid
such as trees and that guy in the power-wedge tuck with poles sticking
straight up. Think positively: visualize how you will negotiate the
turn, not what will happen if you ski off the trail. This may seem
silly, but crashing is a certainty if you let thoughts of crashing
creep in your head. Don't panic - keep a clear head and you will
surprise yourself with what you can do.

Next, choose your line and set up accordingly. Generally, the best line
will be the largest radius arc. This arc begins on the outside of the
curve, swoops to the inside at the apex of the turn, and then moves back
outside at exit. This line may need to be altered due to conditions
such as when a corner has been scraped down to bedrock by 5000
snowplowing skiers.

Initiate turns by moving the outside hand forward and pointing your
body in the direction of travel. Make sure your weight is low and
forward to maximize stability.

Now it is time to perform the turn. There are four basic XC turns to
choose from: Step, Skate, Snowplow, and Slide. Each has distinct
advantages that make it useful in specific situations. It is helpful
to note that in all of these, the inside ski steers the skier through
the turn. The Step Turn is accomplished by making quick steps toward
the inside of the corner, changing direction slightly with each step.
It is useful for small changes in direction or turns where you don't
want to add or subtract speed. To perform the step turn, begin by
weighting the outside ski, then pick up the inside ski and step in
toward the corner, pointing the inside ski a little bit toward the
inside of the curve. Transfer weight to the inside ski and then bring
the outside ski back in parallel to the inside ski. Repeat, taking
small, quick steps as many times as needed to complete the turn. Poles
are not used during a step turn. The Skate Turn is a combination of the
Step Turn and the Marathon Skate. This turn moves the skier quickly
around the corner while adding significant speed.
The Marathon Skate is skating with one ski while the other ski rests in
the classic track. For those who have never heard of this, rent a
circa-1980 ski video and practice what you see until you get at least
three surly glares from knicker-clad classical skiers.
Think of the Skate Turn as the inside ski doing a step turn while the
outside ski is marathon skating. The turn begins by skating hard off
the outside ski while (optionally) poling toward the inside of the
corner. At the end of the skate stroke, place the inside ski as in a
step turn: toward the inside of the corner, pointed slightly in the
direction of the turn. Glide on the inside ski while hauling in the
outside ski in preparation to repeat the cycle. Repeat as many times
as needed to negotiate the curve. The Snowplow Turn is useful when you
want to check your speed through a corner and don't mind being teased
by snooty Master Skier writers. The "Wedge" can be done in varying
degrees depending on the slowing power required. However, it is not
the best way to stop or turn quickly, despite its wide acceptance for
these purposes in the latter waves of many ski marathons.
Initiate the Snowplow Turn by actively steering the skis toward each
other to form a wedge. As the skis move into the wedge position, bend
the knees and shift the weight to the inside edges. Lean into the
corner slightly and steer the inside ski in the direction of the turn.
Shift weight to the inside edge of the outside ski to increase turning
power. Steer using both feet around the corner while the outside ski
slides across the snow. Don't rotate your body much; move as a whole
while keeping your weight low and forward. The wedge puts the knees in
danger if the legs are forced wide or the knees are straightened, so be
careful with it and use other methods when you can.
A better way to stop or take a tight, fast corner is a Slide or Parallel
Turn. This turn gives you maximum cornering and stopping ability, but
can scrub speed significantly. There are two components: carving and
sliding. The carve is created by flexing the ski in an arc and applying
the inside edge to the snow, turning the skis along this "carved" arc.
Unfortunately, cross-country skis do not carve particularly well, and
in order to turn quickly, we often have to turn our skis in the
direction we want to travel by first sliding them and then applying
weight to the edges in order to complete the turn.
Initiate a parallel turn by standing up slightly to unweight the skis.
Begin turning the inside ski by leaning uphill and into the turn while
forcing your body around with your hips. As you steer your inside ski
toward the direction of the turn, keep leaning uphill, bend your knees,
and load the inside edge of the outside ski. Uphill lean is important
here - the pull of gravity will be balanced by the force of the turn
and any deceleration caused by sliding. The skis should be roughly
parallel to each other as you come back down on them and set your
inside edges. The majority of your weight should come down on your
outside ski. The degree of sliding controls how quickly speed is
reduced. Create slide by turning the skis past the direction of travel
before transferring weight to the inside edges. The degree of sliding
depends on how far past the turn direction you go - perpendicular to
the direction of travel will produce a hockey stop, while a slight
overturn will create a minor skid. To carve without sliding, point the
skis in the direction you want to turn, arc the skis by first applying
pressure forward to the tip of the ski and then back as the edges dig
in and the skis begin to bend. Steer through the turn with both feet,
keeping the edges down and the skis arced. Exiting a parallel turn
involves moving off the edges while using the inside leg and momentum
to push you out of the uphill lean and back to a neutral position.
Armed with the basic body position and a small repertoire of turns,
downhills become one of the pure delights of skiing. Learn these
techniques, spread the word, and banish forever the panic-stricken
power wedge. Please.

Gene Goldenfeld wrote:

Picking up a post and article of Nathan's from 2/20/05 re downhill
technique. In discussing the different turns, it says, "Think of the
Skate Turn as the inside ski doing a step turn while the outside ski
is marathon skating." Is this marathon skate technique turn allowed
when out of the tracks on downhill turns in classical races?

Gene

To clarify, I'm asking about a downhill curve, out of tracks, where
because of speed the goal of the outward push is for direction and
balance and maintaining speed, not propulsion.




---------------
Hi Randy,

Here is an article I wrote for Master Skier a few years ago. It
might help a bit. Hopefully the formatting won't be too messed up.
If you want a cleaner copy, email me directly and I'll send you a PDF
or something.

Good Luck,

Nathan
www.nsavage.com

One of the most surprising things I have learned from coaching is how
little most cross-country skiers know about descending. Even expert
skiers who have spent countless hours honing technique often have no
concept of how to descend and corner.

Downhills should be fun, not scary. Learning to descend with
confidence and speed is actually quite simple, and with a little
knowledge and practice most people make dramatic improvements in a
very short time.

As with all skiing techniques, proper descending starts with the
correct body position. This fundamental position is a relaxed stance
with feet slightly wider than shoulder-width apart, with a lowered
center of gravity created by bending at the knees and ankles. The
upper body and arms should be forward, leading with the hands at
roughly stomach- to chest-level. This position creates a stable,
dynamic platform that maximizes balance and control. By staying
relaxed, one can soak up terrain changes, while the wide stance
allows initiation of comfortable, stable turns and quick lateral
movement when needed.

To get comfortable with this position, begin on a flat trail at low
speed. A very wide trail or Alpine hill is best to give room to
experiment and allow for the inevitable errors. Gradually increase
the speed and steepness as you become more confident.

Once you have mastered the basic position, you can increase speed and
stability by lowering into an aerodynamic tuck. You can move between
the tuck and fundamental downhill position when corners and other
obstacles present themselves.

From the basic downhill position, create a tuck by bending at the
knees and waist so the back is horizontal. Look forward, placing
hands in front of the mouth and resting the elbows on the thighs,
just behind the knees. Poles should rest in the fold of the waist and
be horizontal, not sticking straight up as seen in countless
back-of-the-pack Birkie photos. To maximize speed and also get a nice
leg burn, move lower by putting the elbows in front of the knees.

Once you can hurl yourself at top-speed downhill comfortably, it's
time to learn how to negotiate those pesky corners lurking at the
bottom. Approach all corners in the same way: relax, check body
position, and look where you want to go, not at the scary things you
want to avoid such as trees and that guy in the power-wedge tuck with
poles sticking straight up. Think positively: visualize how you will
negotiate the turn, not what will happen if you ski off the trail.
This may seem silly, but crashing is a certainty if you let thoughts
of crashing creep in your head. Don't panic - keep a clear head and
you will surprise yourself with what you can do.

Next, choose your line and set up accordingly. Generally, the best
line will be the largest radius arc. This arc begins on the outside
of the curve, swoops to the inside at the apex of the turn, and then
moves back outside at exit. This line may need to be altered due to
conditions such as when a corner has been scraped down to bedrock by
5000 snowplowing skiers.

Initiate turns by moving the outside hand forward and pointing your
body in the direction of travel. Make sure your weight is low and
forward to maximize stability.

Now it is time to perform the turn. There are four basic XC turns to
choose from: Step, Skate, Snowplow, and Slide. Each has distinct
advantages that make it useful in specific situations. It is helpful
to note that in all of these, the inside ski steers the skier through
the turn. The Step Turn is accomplished by making quick steps toward
the inside of the corner, changing direction slightly with each step.
It is useful for small changes in direction or turns where you don't
want to add or subtract speed. To perform the step turn, begin by
weighting the outside ski, then pick up the inside ski and step in
toward the corner, pointing the inside ski a little bit toward the
inside of the curve. Transfer weight to the inside ski and then bring
the outside ski back in parallel to the inside ski. Repeat, taking
small, quick steps as many times as needed to complete the turn. Poles
are not used during a step turn. The Skate Turn is a combination of
the Step Turn and the Marathon Skate. This turn moves the skier
quickly around the corner while adding significant speed.
The Marathon Skate is skating with one ski while the other ski rests
in the classic track. For those who have never heard of this, rent a
circa-1980 ski video and practice what you see until you get at least
three surly glares from knicker-clad classical skiers.
Think of the Skate Turn as the inside ski doing a step turn while the
outside ski is marathon skating. The turn begins by skating hard off
the outside ski while (optionally) poling toward the inside of the
corner. At the end of the skate stroke, place the inside ski as in a
step turn: toward the inside of the corner, pointed slightly in the
direction of the turn. Glide on the inside ski while hauling in the
outside ski in preparation to repeat the cycle. Repeat as many times
as needed to negotiate the curve. The Snowplow Turn is useful when you
want to check your speed through a corner and don't mind being teased
by snooty Master Skier writers. The "Wedge" can be done in varying
degrees depending on the slowing power required. However, it is not
the best way to stop or turn quickly, despite its wide acceptance for
these purposes in the latter waves of many ski marathons.
Initiate the Snowplow Turn by actively steering the skis toward each
other to form a wedge. As the skis move into the wedge position, bend
the knees and shift the weight to the inside edges. Lean into the
corner slightly and steer the inside ski in the direction of the turn.
Shift weight to the inside edge of the outside ski to increase turning
power. Steer using both feet around the corner while the outside ski
slides across the snow. Don't rotate your body much; move as a whole
while keeping your weight low and forward. The wedge puts the knees
in danger if the legs are forced wide or the knees are straightened,
so be careful with it and use other methods when you can.
A better way to stop or take a tight, fast corner is a Slide or
Parallel Turn. This turn gives you maximum cornering and stopping
ability, but can scrub speed significantly. There are two
components: carving and sliding. The carve is created by flexing the
ski in an arc and applying the inside edge to the snow, turning the
skis along this "carved" arc. Unfortunately, cross-country skis do
not carve particularly well, and in order to turn quickly, we often
have to turn our skis in the direction we want to travel by first
sliding them and then applying weight to the edges in order to
complete the turn. Initiate a parallel turn by standing up slightly
to unweight the skis. Begin turning the inside ski by leaning uphill
and into the turn while forcing your body around with your hips. As
you steer your inside ski toward the direction of the turn, keep
leaning uphill, bend your knees, and load the inside edge of the
outside ski. Uphill lean is important here - the pull of gravity
will be balanced by the force of the turn and any deceleration caused
by sliding. The skis should be roughly parallel to each other as you
come back down on them and set your inside edges. The majority of
your weight should come down on your outside ski. The degree of
sliding controls how quickly speed is reduced. Create slide by
turning the skis past the direction of travel before transferring
weight to the inside edges. The degree of sliding depends on how far
past the turn direction you go - perpendicular to the direction of
travel will produce a hockey stop, while a slight overturn will
create a minor skid. To carve without sliding, point the skis in the
direction you want to turn, arc the skis by first applying pressure
forward to the tip of the ski and then back as the edges dig in and
the skis begin to bend. Steer through the turn with both feet,
keeping the edges down and the skis arced. Exiting a parallel turn
involves moving off the edges while using the inside leg and momentum
to push you out of the uphill lean and back to a neutral position.
Armed with the basic body position and a small repertoire of turns,
downhills become one of the pure delights of skiing. Learn these
techniques, spread the word, and banish forever the panic-stricken
power wedge. Please.

Gene Goldenfeld wrote:
Gene Goldenfeld wrote:


Picking up a post and article of Nathan's from 2/20/05 re downhill
technique. In discussing the different turns, it says, "Think of the
Skate Turn as the inside ski doing a step turn while the outside ski
is marathon skating." Is this marathon skate technique turn allowed
when out of the tracks on downhill turns in classical races?

To clarify, I'm asking about a downhill curve, out of tracks, where
because of speed the goal of the outward push is for direction and
balance and maintaining speed, not propulsion.

Under these circumstances, it is nearly impossibly to make an "illegal"
turn, in fact the only choices you really have are to either snowplow or
skid, a pure step turn won't be fast enough.

OTOH, you can often combine, i.e. start by skidding, then finish the
turn with a few steps as soon as you're pointing in nearly the proper
direction.

Think positively: visualize how you will
negotiate the turn, not what will happen if you ski off the trail.
This may seem silly, but crashing is a certainty if you let thoughts
of crashing creep in your head. Don't panic - keep a clear head and
you will surprise yourself with what you can do.

This is actually even more critical that you might think: The _only_ way
to go fast downhill under tricky conditions is to absolutely believe
that you can and will make it.

I've told previously about my favourite Nordmarka downhill, the trail
from Finnerud down to the Sørkedalen school parking: The descent profile
is similar (slightly scaled-down :-)) to the Kitzbühl downhill run, but
mostly just wide enough for the track setter, with tall spruce trees on
both sides.

There's so many (more or less blind) turns down this hillside that
except under glazed conditions you cannot get into really high speeds,
maximum velocity is probably no more than 40-60 kph.

OTOH, with all the drops and turns, and the trees flashing by on both
sides, this feels a _lot_ faster than twice this speed on alpine
downhill gear/slopes.

Under good condtions, this run is the perfect end to a day's skiing in
Nordmarka, but you _must_ be confident to be able to enjoy it. :-)

Terje

PS. We now have snow in Marka for the third time this winter, today I
had my first ski trip to Skjennungen with my son. :-)

PPS. There is one more turn you can do, particularly when skiing in
powder: The original Telemark turn!

Find a nice, steep slope, something like a slalom hill with 30-50 cm
fresh poder on it is perfect: Even though xc skis have zero or even
negative incut, making normal edge carving impossible, you can still
create a very long curve by putting your weight on the uphill ski while
trailing the other ski far behind. By keeping the trailing ski tip close
to the front boot, you can create a very long (about 3 m) curve from the
front ski tip to the back ski tail.

This is unfortunately a quite unstable configuration, but when/if you
make it, it is a lot of fun!
--
-
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

Gene Goldenfeld wrote:
Gene Goldenfeld wrote:

Picking up a post and article of Nathan's from 2/20/05 re downhill
technique. In discussing the different turns, it says, "Think of the
Skate Turn as the inside ski doing a step turn while the outside ski
is marathon skating." Is this marathon skate technique turn allowed
when out of the tracks on downhill turns in classical races?

Gene

To clarify, I'm asking about a downhill curve, out of tracks, where
because of speed the goal of the outward push is for direction and
balance and maintaining speed, not propulsion.


Gene,

As I understand it, the rule is that where no tramlines have been cut,
then skate-turns are allowed. The place, where tramlines are not cut,
is on downhill corners where it is too fast to stay in tracks.
Decision is made by the technical director for the race.

Extract from FIS rules below. Of course this applies to FIS races.
For the rest, I suppose it is up to the race referee.

Does that answer your question?

Cheers Alex.

"THE INTERNATIONAL
SKI COMPETITION RULES

314 Technique Definitions
314.1 Classical Technique


314.1.1 Classical technique includes the diagonal techniques, the
double poling
techniques, herringbone techniques without a gliding phase, downhill
techniques
and turning techniques. Single or double-skating is not allowed.
Turning techniques comprise steps and pushes in order to change direc-
tions. Where there is a set track, turning techniques with pushing are
NOT
allowed. This will also apply to competitors skiing outside of the set
track.


Preparation for Classical Technique
315.3.1 For interval start competitions in classical technique a single
track should
be set along the ideal skiing line of the competition course. The track
is
normally set in the middle of the course except through curves. In
curves
there should only be set track where the skis can glide unrestrained in
the
set track. Where the curves are too sharp and the speed is considered
to
be too high to stay in the track, the track should be removed. To
decide the
proper course preparation and track setting, the best competitors and
highest possible speed must be taken into consideration. In curves the
track is to be set close to the fence to avoid the possibility to ski
between
the track and the fence."

Yes, it does answer it. In fact, it seems to ok race skate turns where
speed is gained. Thanks.

Gene

"Alex" wrote:

Gene Goldenfeld wrote:
Gene Goldenfeld wrote:

Picking up a post and article of Nathan's from 2/20/05 re downhill
technique. In discussing the different turns, it says, "Think of
the Skate Turn as the inside ski doing a step turn while the
outside ski is marathon skating." Is this marathon skate
technique turn allowed when out of the tracks on downhill turns
in classical races?

Gene

To clarify, I'm asking about a downhill curve, out of tracks, where
because of speed the goal of the outward push is for direction and
balance and maintaining speed, not propulsion.


Gene,

As I understand it, the rule is that where no tramlines have been cut,
then skate-turns are allowed. The place, where tramlines are not cut,
is on downhill corners where it is too fast to stay in tracks.
Decision is made by the technical director for the race.

Extract from FIS rules below. Of course this applies to FIS races.
For the rest, I suppose it is up to the race referee.

Does that answer your question?

Cheers Alex.

"THE INTERNATIONAL
SKI COMPETITION RULES

314 Technique Definitions
314.1 Classical Technique


314.1.1 Classical technique includes the diagonal techniques, the
double poling
techniques, herringbone techniques without a gliding phase, downhill
techniques
and turning techniques. Single or double-skating is not allowed.
Turning techniques comprise steps and pushes in order to change direc-
tions. Where there is a set track, turning techniques with pushing are
NOT
allowed. This will also apply to competitors skiing outside of the set
track.


Preparation for Classical Technique
315.3.1 For interval start competitions in classical technique a
single track should
be set along the ideal skiing line of the competition course. The
track is
normally set in the middle of the course except through curves. In
curves
there should only be set track where the skis can glide unrestrained
in the
set track. Where the curves are too sharp and the speed is considered
to
be too high to stay in the track, the track should be removed. To
decide the
proper course preparation and track setting, the best competitors and
highest possible speed must be taken into consideration. In curves the
track is to be set close to the fence to avoid the possibility to ski
between
the track and the fence."

Terje Mathisen wrote:
Snip
I've told previously about my favourite Nordmarka downhill, the trail
from Finnerud down to the S=F8rkedalen school parking: The descent profile
is similar (slightly scaled-down :-)) to the Kitzb=FChl downhill run, but
mostly just wide enough for the track setter, with tall spruce trees on
both sides.

There's so many (more or less blind) turns down this hillside that
except under glazed conditions you cannot get into really high speeds,
maximum velocity is probably no more than 40-60 kph.

OTOH, with all the drops and turns, and the trees flashing by on both
sides, this feels a _lot_ faster than twice this speed on alpine
downhill gear/slopes.

Under good condtions, this run is the perfect end to a day's skiing in
Nordmarka, but you _must_ be confident to be able to enjoy it. :-)

It's a long time since I skied in Nordmarka, but I seem to remember a
lot of runs that fit that description! I used to do them on wooden
skis with three-pin bindings and leather Adidas racing boots, which had
all the torsional strength of a wash-leather. The run I do recall, was
called (I think) Den Skomakeren (The Shoemaker). It ran from one of
the tram stations at the top of the hill (Voksenkollen?) down to
Tryvannstua alongside the Slalom slope used in the Oslo Olympics. It
was very busy and used to get very icy. This was before the
Skiforeningen had a track machine, so the only track preparation was a
few old boys who used to ski around a bit. Is it still there?


Terje

snip
PPS. There is one more turn you can do, particularly when skiing in
powder: The original Telemark turn!
snip

This brings us neatly back to racing turns. Most of the racers turn
on the flat (if it is a sharp turn) by using the Finnstep. Hard to
describe for those who can't get the skiing on telly, but it is a sort
of cross-between the diagonal gait and a telemark turn.

Alex