To Roto-Brush system or not Roto-Brush system

--0-1816968658-1074195943=:40998
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Everyone,

Quick question.......To Roto-Brush system or not Roto-Brush system.

Is hand brushing that much better?

Thanks.............Jim



"If a man does his best, what else is there?"
- General George S. Patton (1885-1945)

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
--0-1816968658-1074195943=:40998
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

DIVEveryone,/DIV
DIV /DIV
DIVQuick question.......To Roto-Brush system or not Roto-Brush system./DIV
DIV /DIV
DIVIs hand brushing that much better?/DIV
DIV /DIV
DIVThanks.............Jim/DIVBRBRDTSTRONGFONT color=#800000"If a man does his best, what else is there?"/FONT/STRONG BR- General George S. Patton (1885-1945)/DTphr SIZE=1
Do you Yahoo!?br
Yahoo! Hotjobs: a href="http://pa.yahoo.com/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/hotjobs/mail_footer_email/evt=21482/*http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus"Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes/a
--0-1816968658-1074195943=:40998--

I believe the top waxers at both Swix and Toko prefer hand brushing.
Me, a busy guy with a day job, I always rotobrush. Sorry, I just don't
have time to hand brush. I use a low RPM cordless drill and I love the
way the skis look. I have a Red Creek dual brush. Horsehair to dig
out the wax, nylon to put on the shine.

Rob Bradlee
Toko Tech Team

--- Cloutier Jim wrote:
Everyone,

Quick question.......To Roto-Brush system or not Roto-Brush system.

Is hand brushing that much better?

Thanks.............Jim



"If a man does his best, what else is there?"
- General George S. Patton (1885-1945)

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes


=====
Rob Bradlee
Java, C++, Perl, XML, OOAD, Linux, and Unix Training

"Rob Bradlee" wrote in message
o.com...
I believe the top waxers at both Swix and Toko prefer hand brushing.
Me, a busy guy with a day job, I always rotobrush. Sorry, I just don't
have time to hand brush. I use a low RPM cordless drill and I love the
way the skis look. I have a Red Creek dual brush. Horsehair to dig
out the wax, nylon to put on the shine.

If you were hand brushing, would you do it in the same order - horse hair
then nylon? I've always done it the opposite - nylon to do the heavy work
with thicker bristles, followed by the finer horsehair to get into the
smaller spaces. But the ski always looks nice and shiny after the nylon,
then the horsehair dulls it out. Am I backwards?

Grissy

If you were hand brushing, would you do it in the same order - horse
hair
then nylon? I've always done it the opposite - nylon to do the heavy
work
with thicker bristles, followed by the finer horsehair to get into
the
smaller spaces. But the ski always looks nice and shiny after the
nylon,
then the horsehair dulls it out. Am I backwards?

You can alternate them in any order. But finish with the nylon to put
on the shine. You can also get a soft nylon brush to really polish -
do that by hand at the end.

Rob Bradlee
Toko Tech Team


=====
Rob Bradlee
Java, C++, Perl, XML, OOAD, Linux, and Unix Training

"Rob Bradlee" wrote in message
o.com...

If you were hand brushing, would you do it in the same order - horse
hair
then nylon? I've always done it the opposite - nylon to do the heavy
work
with thicker bristles, followed by the finer horsehair to get into
the
smaller spaces. But the ski always looks nice and shiny after the
nylon,
then the horsehair dulls it out. Am I backwards?

You can alternate them in any order. But finish with the nylon to put
on the shine. You can also get a soft nylon brush to really polish -
do that by hand at the end.

Rob Bradlee

Hey thanks for the reply Rob. I did this last night and the skis look
excellent, nice and shiny and no apparent surface wax.

Rob or others out there - If you don't mind my picking your mind a little
more (I really appreciate the expert tech comments from you and others).

1- is the shininess actually a factor in performance of the ski? Is
horsehair followed by nylon (shiny) actually faster than nylon followed by
horsehair (duller). Assuming same amount of scraping, brushing with each
brush in both cases.

2 - I've always been curious as to how much to brush. Yes, I know "you
can't brush too much". One guy told me to brush until shiny (thus the
concern above because finishing with the horsehair (which someone else told
me to do) actually dulled the shininess). With a nylon brush, that really
doesn't take much brushing and I've always figured it wasn't enough.
Someone else told me to brush until I don't raise any wax. That's tougher
to determine because any residue in the brush (from the previous pass, for
example), leaves some residue that isn't necessarily from the current pass.
I've settled into a routine where I just brush a certain number of times and
call it a day - number depending on ambition level at the time - say 5 or
10.

3 - what's the best way to clean your brushes. I've always just vacuumed
them with the shop vac. But this doesn't seem to get them perfectly clean.
I'd read to put them in the dishwasher - tried that and the wooden brushes
warped. (Might I suggest a market for plastic handled brushes?)

4 - Does the Toko LF (or HF) moly serve approximately the same purpose as
the "all in one" moly (i.e. non-flouro, cheap) - Assuming very cold and dry
conditions, where a LF or HF flouro wax might not outperform a regular
straight hydrocarbon wax. If one were to use a moly under wax of the day,
is there any reason to use the LF (or HF) rather than the non-flouro version
of the moly. Are all these versions of Toko moly about the same hardness
(e.g. require similar iron temp, waxing technique, etc.).

By the way, per the other discussion on Cold Powder - I'm a big fan and
think it is an excellent product in super cold and abrasive conditions.

Thanks MUCH

Grissy

1- is the shininess actually a factor in performance of the ski? Is
horsehair followed by nylon (shiny) actually faster than nylon
followed by
horsehair (duller). Assuming same amount of scraping, brushing with
each
brush in both cases.

Not sure. It sure LOOKS good.

2 - I've always been curious as to how much to brush. Yes, I know
"you
can't brush too much". One guy told me to brush until shiny (thus
the
concern above because finishing with the horsehair (which someone
else told
me to do) actually dulled the shininess). With a nylon brush, that
really
doesn't take much brushing and I've always figured it wasn't enough.
Someone else told me to brush until I don't raise any wax. That's
tougher
to determine because any residue in the brush (from the previous
pass, for
example), leaves some residue that isn't necessarily from the current
pass.
I've settled into a routine where I just brush a certain number of
times and
call it a day - number depending on ambition level at the time - say
5 or
10.

Yes, ambition level is the key. Usually you can see if there is still
wax in the structure and if you are still pulling any out. Amount of
brushing really varies with hardness of the wax.

3 - what's the best way to clean your brushes. I've always just
vacuumed
them with the shop vac. But this doesn't seem to get them perfectly
clean.
I'd read to put them in the dishwasher - tried that and the wooden
brushes
warped. (Might I suggest a market for plastic handled brushes?)

Pour hot water on them?

4 - Does the Toko LF (or HF) moly serve approximately the same
purpose as
the "all in one" moly (i.e. non-flouro, cheap) - Assuming very cold
and dry
conditions, where a LF or HF flouro wax might not outperform a
regular
straight hydrocarbon wax. If one were to use a moly under wax of the
day,
is there any reason to use the LF (or HF) rather than the non-flouro
version
of the moly. Are all these versions of Toko moly about the same
hardness
(e.g. require similar iron temp, waxing technique, etc.).

No Moly at all if it is super cold - just layers of blue.
LF Moly in most conditions as a first layer.
HF Moly when really wet as underlayer and also mixed with yellow if
snow is really dirty for final layer.

By the way, per the other discussion on Cold Powder - I'm a big fan
and
think it is an excellent product in super cold and abrasive
conditions.

Thanks MUCH

No prob!

Rob Bradlee
Toko Tech Team


=====
Rob Bradlee
Java, C++, Perl, XML, OOAD, Linux, and Unix Training

Thanks for all the info and advice. Good skiing to you

Grissy

"Rob Bradlee" wrote in message
o.com...

1- is the shininess actually a factor in performance of the ski? Is
horsehair followed by nylon (shiny) actually faster than nylon
followed by
horsehair (duller). Assuming same amount of scraping, brushing with
each
brush in both cases.

Not sure. It sure LOOKS good.

2 - I've always been curious as to how much to brush. Yes, I know
"you
can't brush too much". One guy told me to brush until shiny (thus
the
concern above because finishing with the horsehair (which someone
else told
me to do) actually dulled the shininess). With a nylon brush, that
really
doesn't take much brushing and I've always figured it wasn't enough.
Someone else told me to brush until I don't raise any wax. That's
tougher
to determine because any residue in the brush (from the previous
pass, for
example), leaves some residue that isn't necessarily from the current
pass.
I've settled into a routine where I just brush a certain number of
times and
call it a day - number depending on ambition level at the time - say
5 or
10.

Yes, ambition level is the key. Usually you can see if there is still
wax in the structure and if you are still pulling any out. Amount of
brushing really varies with hardness of the wax.

3 - what's the best way to clean your brushes. I've always just
vacuumed
them with the shop vac. But this doesn't seem to get them perfectly
clean.
I'd read to put them in the dishwasher - tried that and the wooden
brushes
warped. (Might I suggest a market for plastic handled brushes?)

Pour hot water on them?

4 - Does the Toko LF (or HF) moly serve approximately the same
purpose as
the "all in one" moly (i.e. non-flouro, cheap) - Assuming very cold
and dry
conditions, where a LF or HF flouro wax might not outperform a
regular
straight hydrocarbon wax. If one were to use a moly under wax of the
day,
is there any reason to use the LF (or HF) rather than the non-flouro
version
of the moly. Are all these versions of Toko moly about the same
hardness
(e.g. require similar iron temp, waxing technique, etc.).

No Moly at all if it is super cold - just layers of blue.
LF Moly in most conditions as a first layer.
HF Moly when really wet as underlayer and also mixed with yellow if
snow is really dirty for final layer.

By the way, per the other discussion on Cold Powder - I'm a big fan
and
think it is an excellent product in super cold and abrasive
conditions.

Thanks MUCH

No prob!

Rob Bradlee
Toko Tech Team


=====
Rob Bradlee
Java, C++, Perl, XML, OOAD, Linux, and Unix Training

Griss wrote:


Rob or others out there - If you don't mind my picking your mind a little
more (I really appreciate the expert tech comments from you and others).

1- is the shininess actually a factor in performance of the ski? Is
horsehair followed by nylon (shiny) actually faster than nylon followed by
horsehair (duller). Assuming same amount of scraping, brushing with each
brush in both cases.


Depends what you are trying to achieve.
Depends on the brushes you are using (bristle diameter and stiffness).
A finer bristle will get into the structure of the base to remove more
wax thus exposing the structure more. This can be good when you are
looking to break the suction effect.
A coarse bristle will give you more of the polished look. Less of the
underlying micro structure of the base exposed. This can be good when
conditions are dry with hard, well-structured snow because the crystals
will have a harder time grabbing the base (thus slowing you down).

A stiff, coarse brush will remove the bulk of excess wax faster than
a fine, soft brush. But the fine brush will get the last of the excess
off better.

If you are going to be layering the wax then you want to expose as
much of the structure so the next layer can there.



2 - I've always been curious as to how much to brush. Yes, I know "you
can't brush too much". One guy told me to brush until shiny (thus the
concern above because finishing with the horsehair (which someone else told
me to do) actually dulled the shininess). With a nylon brush, that really
doesn't take much brushing and I've always figured it wasn't enough.
Someone else told me to brush until I don't raise any wax. That's tougher
to determine because any residue in the brush (from the previous pass, for
example), leaves some residue that isn't necessarily from the current pass.
I've settled into a routine where I just brush a certain number of times and
call it a day - number depending on ambition level at the time - say 5 or
10.


The brush until you don't get much wax dust off is best.
If you're using roto-brushes the effort to do this is low.
It's easier to have the roto-brush remove it then use the
snow on the trail to brush the excess off. It just slows the
skis and makes you use up energy.
If you're using a roto-brush, the majority of the time the 5 passes
should be enough. You can use a hand brush to test a bit to see
what is still there. Then you can decide to roto more or not.


3 - what's the best way to clean your brushes. I've always just vacuumed
them with the shop vac. But this doesn't seem to get them perfectly clean.
I'd read to put them in the dishwasher - tried that and the wooden brushes
warped. (Might I suggest a market for plastic handled brushes?)


Yeah, there is the dishwasher method. Usually it should be top-rack only
and on a short cycle. Don't let the dishwasher go through it's dry
cycle. Let them dry out on the counter.
You can use the very hot water in the sink method (bristle side down
and swish them around every couple of minutes).
You can use the freeze method: get the brush as cold as you can and then
scrape the bristle tips with a scraper to "pop" the wax off.

Red Creek makes plastic handled hand brushes. But they are
difficult to get in North America (probably because they cost more).

BTW Red Creek recommends that their roto-brushes be cleaned as follows:
Nylon brushes (grey, white, black): 80C water with mild soap or no soap
(no chlorine additives). So this means top rack dishwasher is okay.
Natural brushes (horsehair/brown hard & soft/fine, combi, cleaning):
40C water (dish sink water). Mild soap or no soap, no chlorine, etc.
Don't wash the roto-cork.
Since Red Creek supplies roto brushes to Toko, the same will apply
to those roto brushes. No info on what other brands recommend.

Don't use wax remover or other solvents.


4 - Does the Toko LF (or HF) moly serve approximately the same purpose as
the "all in one" moly (i.e. non-flouro, cheap) - Assuming very cold and dry
conditions, where a LF or HF flouro wax might not outperform a regular
straight hydrocarbon wax. If one were to use a moly under wax of the day,
is there any reason to use the LF (or HF) rather than the non-flouro version
of the moly. Are all these versions of Toko moly about the same hardness
(e.g. require similar iron temp, waxing technique, etc.).


Rob answered this; Toko question and he's the Toko guy.


Rodney