Touring gear - Grindelwald & Zermatt

I've just been bitten by the touring bug (OK, so I've done one day tour
but it was enough to convince me) so I'm interested in demo-ing some
touring gear on my next couple of trips in Feb. I'll probably not buy
until late in the season (if my luck holds I may be in Chamonix in
April to do a bit of touring so I'd buy then), but I'd like to get a
feel for the gear, in particular the boots, so I know what I'm after.

Can anyone recommend shops in Grindelwald and/or Zermatt that either
hire decent touring gear or will let me demo boots?

While we're on the topic does anyone have any thoughts on touring
boots? In particular, are the 4-clips boots with the interchangable
soles any good (sorry, can't remember the brand) or are they a pricey
gimmick? Although I am keen to do a lot of touring in the future the
downhill performance of the boot will be very important to me, I'm
happy to sacrifice a bit of uphill performance if the boots are good on
the way down.

Skis are less of an issue, I'm pretty sure I know what I want there
(something fat and light, maybe Atomics or possibly the Black Diamond
Verdicts which look very nice), but I'd be keen to hear any thoughts
all the same. Ditto for bindings - I'm thinking Fritschi Freerides
would suit but I'd be happy to hear other advice, esp. with regard to
the Naxos.

Cheers,
Steve

PS. To the rec.skiing.backcountry readers, please let me know if this
is OT for the group, I've not posted here before but I assume it's
relevant for Euro ski touring related topics?

On 17 Jan 2006 03:24:24 -0800, "SteveH"
wrote:

While we're on the topic does anyone have any thoughts on touring
boots? In particular, are the 4-clips boots with the interchangable
soles any good (sorry, can't remember the brand) or are they a pricey
gimmick? Although I am keen to do a lot of touring in the future the
downhill performance of the boot will be very important to me, I'm
happy to sacrifice a bit of uphill performance if the boots are good on
the way down.

I bought Denali TTs last season and have been very happy with them.
They're the stiffest in the Scarpa range but are not as close-fitting
as a race-level downhill boot, so there have been a couple of
occasions when I might have had better control in difficult conditions
(ice).

This year my wife also bought touring boots for the first time, and
tried several makes, eventually settling on the Garmont Adrenaline,
which is the one to which you refer, with the interchangeable soles.
As it happens, this has proved quite a useful feature, as she's not
yet decided on a replacement ski, so she currently has the downhill
sole (i.e. hard flat plastic) so she can use them with the normal
downhill bindings. She, too, is very pleased with the boots.

But the _only_ reason to change the soles is to allow normal bindings
to be used; it will have no effect on the performance of the boot. In
any event, they're as stiff as a dedicated downhill boot, so there's
no problem there.

--
Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
Ski Club of Great Britain - http://www.skiclub.co.uk
All opinions expressed are personal and in no way represent those of the Ski Club.

Hi Ace,

Thanks for the info.

This year my wife also bought touring boots for the first time, and
tried several makes, eventually settling on the Garmont Adrenaline,
which is the one to which you refer, with the interchangeable soles.
As it happens, this has proved quite a useful feature, as she's not
yet decided on a replacement ski, so she currently has the downhill
sole (i.e. hard flat plastic) so she can use them with the normal
downhill bindings. She, too, is very pleased with the boots.

But the _only_ reason to change the soles is to allow normal bindings
to be used; it will have no effect on the performance of the boot. In
any event, they're as stiff as a dedicated downhill boot, so there's
no problem there.


Yep, they're the ones I meant. So, basically they are a DH boot with
the option of fitting a touring sole? Doesn't seem a lot to gain there
- surely you can use a normal DH boot in touring bindings anyway (I
know you can't do the opposite). Doesn't the touring sole make a
difference when hiking/climbing?

On 17 Jan 2006 03:46:08 -0800, "SteveH"
wrote:

Hi Ace,

Thanks for the info.

This year my wife also bought touring boots for the first time, and
tried several makes, eventually settling on the Garmont Adrenaline,
which is the one to which you refer, with the interchangeable soles.
As it happens, this has proved quite a useful feature, as she's not
yet decided on a replacement ski, so she currently has the downhill
sole (i.e. hard flat plastic) so she can use them with the normal
downhill bindings. She, too, is very pleased with the boots.

But the _only_ reason to change the soles is to allow normal bindings
to be used; it will have no effect on the performance of the boot. In
any event, they're as stiff as a dedicated downhill boot, so there's
no problem there.


Yep, they're the ones I meant. So, basically they are a DH boot with
the option of fitting a touring sole?

No, they're a stiff touring boot with the option of fitting a DH sole.

Doesn't seem a lot to gain there

They're much lighter, warmer and more comfortable than a normal DH
boot, plus they do have a walk mode.

- surely you can use a normal DH boot in touring bindings anyway

Well yes, but shat's the point?

(I know you can do the opposite).

Not if you value your ankles. Some DH bindings have a moveable
under-toe anti-friction plate, which _may_ work with touring boots,
but the ones I had (Salomon) don't move, and the anti-friction device
doesn't work very well in conjunction with grippy vibram soles. It
took me the best part of six months before my ankle was fully
recovered.

Even if your bindings have got a moveable AFD, I found that getting
them correctly adjusted at the toe was a problem, due to the
compresion of the rubber soles. They'd seem tight, then after use
there was some movement of the boot within the binding - not a good
thing. So in short I wouldn't risk it again - I only sprained my ankle
so I was able to ski, with some discomfort, for the rest of the
season, but it could so easily have broken it.

Doesn't the touring sole make a
difference when hiking/climbing?

Sure, that's why they have them. Once my wife gets new skis, with
touring bindings, I don't think we'll ever be putting the DH sole back
on.

--
Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
Ski Club of Great Britain - http://www.skiclub.co.uk
All opinions expressed are personal and in no way represent those of the Ski Club.

In message .com
"SteveH" wrote:

I've just been bitten by the touring bug (OK, so I've done one day tour
but it was enough to convince me) so I'm interested in demo-ing some
touring gear on my next couple of trips in Feb. I'll probably not buy
until late in the season (if my luck holds I may be in Chamonix in
April to do a bit of touring so I'd buy then), but I'd like to get a
feel for the gear, in particular the boots, so I know what I'm after.

Can anyone recommend shops in Grindelwald and/or Zermatt that either
hire decent touring gear or will let me demo boots?

I've not much experience of shops for ski-touring equipment other than
the many shops in the Chamonix valley. I bought my touring boots from
Footworks in Chamonix, but they also have another outlet now in
Argentiere. Obviously the most important thing about touring boots is
that they are going to fit your feet properly, be comfortable and warm,
for long days in remote places. When touring you can't easily nip into
the nearest piste side restaurant to warm up cold feet.


While we're on the topic does anyone have any thoughts on touring
boots?

Footworks after measuring my feet recommended me to buy Nordica boots
rather than Scarpa boots. They didn't have any of the right size in
stock, but got on the telephone and tracked some down locally and then
after making me a coffee, went off and returned within 30 minutes with
boots of the right size. I've used them for 2-3 weeks every year for the
last 6 years and they've never given me any trouble. After 3 seasons the
inner boot started to pack too much and I did upgrade to a Zip-Fit
liner.

In particular, are the 4-clips boots with the interchangable soles any
good (sorry, can't remember the brand) or are they a pricey gimmick?
Although I am keen to do a lot of touring in the future the downhill
performance of the boot will be very important to me, I'm happy to
sacrifice a bit of uphill performance if the boots are good on the way
down.

I've got two sets of skis and two sets of boots. One for touring and one
for downhill. The trouble is that if you want one set of boots for all
types of skiing you are going to have to make some kind of compromise.


Skis are less of an issue, I'm pretty sure I know what I want there
(something fat and light, maybe Atomics or possibly the Black Diamond
Verdicts which look very nice), but I'd be keen to hear any thoughts
all the same.

I'm now on Atomic Beta Rides 9.22, but I started off with Dynastar 4x4
and after breaking both skis in a crash I had a spell on Fischer Free
Rides. Of those three skis the Atomics are definitely my favourites,
giving a good all round performance under many types of snow condition
whilst being lighter than many other equivalent skis. Several of my
friends are touring on Bandits either XX or B2s.

Ditto for bindings - I'm thinking Fritschi Freerides would suit but
I'd be happy to hear other advice, esp. with regard to the Naxos.

I've used Fritschi Diamirs Mk I on the Dynastar and Fischers, and now
have the Mk IIs on my Atomics (I broke the titanal bar on the Mk Is but
the design has been improved and strengthened on the Mk II, III and
Freeride versions).

If you're going to use the boots and skis for a lot of downhill skiing
as well as for straight touring, then the Freerides are probably the
tougher binding.


Cheers, Steve

PS. To the rec.skiing.backcountry readers, please let me know if this
is OT for the group, I've not posted here before but I assume it's
relevant for Euro ski touring related topics?


Mike http://www.path.cam.ac.uk/cccc/hauteroute/
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
" || _`\,_ |__\ \ | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

Cheers for the clarification. Comments in line.

Ace wrote:

- surely you can use a normal DH boot in touring bindings anyway

Well yes, but shat's the point?

My point was that if the Adrenaline is a stiff as a DH boot then
there's not a lot of extra comfort to be gained by using an Adrenaline
over my trusty Langes(!). As you say there are other benefits though,
such as walk mode, lightness etc.


(I know you can do the opposite).

Not if you value your ankles. Some DH bindings have a moveable
under-toe anti-friction plate, which _may_ work with touring boots,
but the ones I had (Salomon) don't move, and the anti-friction device
doesn't work very well in conjunction with grippy vibram soles. It
took me the best part of six months before my ankle was fully
recovered.

Sorry, typo on my part - I meant to say you CAN'T do the opposite, as
you say DH bindings + touring soles is a bad idea. DH boots + touring
bindings is (AFAIK) fine.

The Adrenaline sounds like a good solution for me from the way you
describe it. I'd be a bit concerened that it wasn't one thing or the
other - i.e. not really a touring boot and not really a DH boot but it
seems like a good idea in it's own right to me. Has anyone used these
for climbing? I don't mean full-on ice climbing, I mean are they OK if
you need to put crampons on when to gets too steep for skis? I guess
this is where a traditional touring boot could win out, but if they are
useable for this then they've got to be worth a look.

Cheers,
Steve

Cheers Mike,

Usefull stuff, thanks for the tip about Footworks. I'll certainly give
them a try if/when I'm in Cham.

Steve

In message . com
"SteveH" wrote:

Cheers for the clarification. Comments in line.

Ace wrote:

- surely you can use a normal DH boot in touring bindings anyway

Well yes, but shat's the point?

My point was that if the Adrenaline is a stiff as a DH boot then
there's not a lot of extra comfort to be gained by using an Adrenaline
over my trusty Langes(!). As you say there are other benefits though,
such as walk mode, lightness etc.


(I know you can do the opposite).

Not if you value your ankles. Some DH bindings have a moveable
under-toe anti-friction plate, which _may_ work with touring boots,
but the ones I had (Salomon) don't move, and the anti-friction device
doesn't work very well in conjunction with grippy vibram soles. It
took me the best part of six months before my ankle was fully
recovered.

Sorry, typo on my part - I meant to say you CAN'T do the opposite, as
you say DH bindings + touring soles is a bad idea. DH boots + touring
bindings is (AFAIK) fine.

The Adrenaline sounds like a good solution for me from the way you
describe it. I'd be a bit concerened that it wasn't one thing or the
other - i.e. not really a touring boot and not really a DH boot but it
seems like a good idea in it's own right to me. Has anyone used these
for climbing? I don't mean full-on ice climbing, I mean are they OK if
you need to put crampons on when to gets too steep for skis? I guess
this is where a traditional touring boot could win out, but if they are
useable for this then they've got to be worth a look.

Cheers,
Steve


It would be fairly easy to get crampons to fit and work on traditional
DH boots however the disadvantage would be that without a walk mode you
would have limited comfort and ability to walk and climb easily over
variable terrain.

When touring I now tend compromise and to carry a lightweight alloy pair
of crampons which are fine for steep neve but not much use for steep ice
or mixed ice and rock since they blunt and bend too easily.

Mike http://www.path.cam.ac.uk/~mrc7/cccc/hauteroute/
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
" || _`\,_ |__\ \ | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

Mike Clark wrote:

It would be fairly easy to get crampons to fit and work on traditional
DH boots however the disadvantage would be that without a walk mode you
would have limited comfort and ability to walk and climb easily over
variable terrain.

Also (I think) the case that where an AT boot has a decent Vibram (or
similar) sole designed for use on Actual Ground, a typical downhill boot
has a Comedy sole designed to stand on a pair of skis and not much else.
Even if the cuff could be loosened I wouldn't fancy going anywhere
much in them (I spent bits of last week tottering about on my nordic
track boots which flex easily but have no proper sole to speak of).

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

In message
Peter Clinch wrote:

Mike Clark wrote:

It would be fairly easy to get crampons to fit and work on traditional
DH boots however the disadvantage would be that without a walk mode you
would have limited comfort and ability to walk and climb easily over
variable terrain.

Also (I think) the case that where an AT boot has a decent Vibram (or
similar) sole designed for use on Actual Ground, a typical downhill boot
has a Comedy sole designed to stand on a pair of skis and not much else.
Even if the cuff could be loosened I wouldn't fancy going anywhere
much in them (I spent bits of last week tottering about on my nordic
track boots which flex easily but have no proper sole to speak of).

Pete.

Yes the lack of a decent sole as well as a walk mode means that DH
boots are of limited use for extended touring. However I've come across
tourers who continue to use rear entry DH boots for touring, loosening
the ankle clips for skinning (the claim is that they are very
comfortable). I guess it depends on the type of touring you're planning
to do.

--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
" || _`\,_ |__\ \ | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"