AT combinations/Backcountry Skiing in Newfoundland

This looks like a good group. I'm a newbie, but not to skiing. I've
been skiing since 1966 and like chutes, bowls, and really~tight~trees.
I want to get further back on my gear, and I need some help choosing
an AT combination. I'm looking at a Rossi Enduro (soft
boots)/Silvretta Tour 500's/Voile Carbon Surf combination.
What I know:
1)I'll be hanging on to my Technica TNT's and X-Screams for close
climbs.
2)I demo'd my son's Denalt/Fritschi/BanditXX combo and, although I
ended up breaking trail for two friends on snowshoes,I find this combo
is overkill for me.
3)The Scarpa F-1, around which I'd planned to build my AT rig, won't
be available this year, and I can't wait.
What I need to know:
1)Can you trust 'soft' boots on steep pitches?
2)Will the mid-fat AT skis (such as Voile Carbon Surfs; Tua Titan; BD
Havoc and Mira) stand up to Newfie bc conditions, including boiler
plate, sastrugi, breakable crust, and steep pitches? Or is this AT
combo low angle gear?
3)What hard (expensive) lessons have you learned about AT setups?

Regarding the posting of March 07, 2003,to rec.skiing.backcountry...
I've found backcountry skiing in Newfoundland to be very good (hey, it
"Rocks"!)
We used to do it to prepare for lift serviced off piste skiing
elsewhere, but we now like it so much we now do multi day man hauled
(toboggan and snowshoes) trips to remote huts and ski...everything in
sight.
I have some snow pics which I can e-mail to individuals (if they want)
in appreciation for some good info about their experience with AT gear
combos. Don't ya just love this part of the season?
Bob;-)

Bob, you're all over the page here...

2)I demo'd my son's Denalt/Fritschi/BanditXX combo and, although I
ended up breaking trail for two friends on snowshoes,I find this combo
is overkill for me.

2)Will the mid-fat AT skis (such as Voile Carbon Surfs; Tua Titan; BD
Havoc and Mira) stand up to Newfie bc conditions, including boiler
plate, sastrugi, breakable crust, and steep pitches?

which one is it? Sounds like your son had you dialed for backcountry skiing
(or anything but a touring day, you should join your buddies on snowshoes if
that is what you're looking for). I live in Colorado, so we are constantly
doing huge vert in a day trip or stuff you can't even imagine in multi-day
outings. I have earned my stripes and gathered my lumps along the way with
equipment experimentation. Not having done any N.E. backcountry skiing I
will give you the following advice: STAY AWAY FROM SOFT BOOTS IF YOU'RE
GOING TO DO STEEP, HARD or CRUSTY/UNPREDICTABLE SURFACE DESCENTS!!! Like I
said, I've gathered my lumps, and encountering some hidden soft slab at high
speed with soft mountaineering boots in AT bindings resulted in a certain
portion of one of our BC areas to be renamed "face-plant ridge".

Expensive lessons: If you're using AT boots and bindings you don't have to
spend the big $$$ on specialty AT skis, I have found a number of
all-mountain high performance DH skis to be VERY acceptable in the
back-country. You can grind a slot in the tail for your skins to attach to
(takes like 5 minutes and works just as well as the AT ski notch), you
should shop for the lightest DH skis for BC (since mine end up on my pack a
lot for those steep ascents and who wants heavy gear when you're doing all
of the work?) DH gear is always much more affordable for equivalent
performance characteristics.

Personal preferences: I like non-glue skins, there are a number of skins
out there, my buddies with the sticky skins are always fu(!#g around with
their skins while I cruise on up the slopes, ski down, re-skin and repeat.
If you get snow build-up on your skis (because you didn't choose the right
wax, or because those damned sticky skins caused your skis to build up
snow...) then you're dicking around trying to get your skins to stick so you
can yo-yo. I personally have never had to resort to carrying cooking oil
for anything besides cooking, and that is fine with me.

Recommendation: Rent a few packages from good mountaineering shops, try
different boots, different bindings and skins (if possible), even try to get
some different adjustable poles to see what you like and develop your own
opinions, this will end up with you being happier with whatever you decide
to purchase in the end. The cost of a few rentals will be more than offset
in the long run since you'll end up buying something that you are already
confident will work for you.

Hope any of this helps in some little way, happy touring!

Vinnie

"Bob Inkpen" wrote in message
om...
This looks like a good group. I'm a newbie, but not to skiing. I've
been skiing since 1966 and like chutes, bowls, and really~tight~trees.
I want to get further back on my gear, and I need some help choosing
an AT combination. I'm looking at a Rossi Enduro (soft
boots)/Silvretta Tour 500's/Voile Carbon Surf combination.
What I know:
1)I'll be hanging on to my Technica TNT's and X-Screams for close
climbs.
2)I demo'd my son's Denalt/Fritschi/BanditXX combo and, although I
ended up breaking trail for two friends on snowshoes,I find this combo
is overkill for me.
3)The Scarpa F-1, around which I'd planned to build my AT rig, won't
be available this year, and I can't wait.
What I need to know:
1)Can you trust 'soft' boots on steep pitches?
2)Will the mid-fat AT skis (such as Voile Carbon Surfs; Tua Titan; BD
Havoc and Mira) stand up to Newfie bc conditions, including boiler
plate, sastrugi, breakable crust, and steep pitches? Or is this AT
combo low angle gear?
3)What hard (expensive) lessons have you learned about AT setups?

Regarding the posting of March 07, 2003,to rec.skiing.backcountry...
I've found backcountry skiing in Newfoundland to be very good (hey, it
"Rocks"!)
We used to do it to prepare for lift serviced off piste skiing
elsewhere, but we now like it so much we now do multi day man hauled
(toboggan and snowshoes) trips to remote huts and ski...everything in
sight.
I have some snow pics which I can e-mail to individuals (if they want)
in appreciation for some good info about their experience with AT gear
combos. Don't ya just love this part of the season?
Bob;-)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article b7rbb.402228$cF.125143@rwcrnsc53,
Vince wrote:
Bob, you're all over the page here...

2)I demo'd my son's Denalt/Fritschi/BanditXX combo and, although I
ended up breaking trail for two friends on snowshoes,I find this combo
is overkill for me.

_ If Denali's are too heavy, then I'm not sure Enduro's are going
to be much lighter. They may be more comfortable, but I don't
think they're much lighter. The Silveretta 500 is a nice binding,
but it's not that much lighter than a Fritschi, I have a pair
and I really like them as they allow me to choose boots according
to what terrain I plan to ski. Sometimes climbing boots just make
more sense, but you have to adapt your technique to the nature
of these boots. Skiing in climbing boots is definitely a challenge.


2)Will the mid-fat AT skis (such as Voile Carbon Surfs; Tua Titan; BD
Havoc and Mira) stand up to Newfie bc conditions, including boiler
plate, sastrugi, breakable crust, and steep pitches?

which one is it? Sounds like your son had you dialed for backcountry skiing
(or anything but a touring day, you should join your buddies on snowshoes if
that is what you're looking for).

_ Well, I suspect any of those skis would probably ski just fine,
provided you get them short enough and get a beefy enough boot
to edge them in difficult conditions. I've skiied the Mira and
it's definitely a nice stable all-around ski. Personally, if I
were you I'd be looking at things Dynafit bindings and Scarpa
Laser. The reality of BC skiing is that you spend the vast
majority of your time going uphill, you have to decide how
much you want to compromise the downhill control part to
arrive at the top with enough energy to ski down.

_ You should check out Lou Dawson's web page.

http://www.wildsnow.com/

Lot's of useful advice and tips.

I live in Colorado, so we are constantly
doing huge vert in a day trip or stuff you can't even imagine in multi-day
outings. I have earned my stripes and gathered my lumps along the way with
equipment experimentation. Not having done any N.E. backcountry skiing I
will give you the following advice: STAY AWAY FROM SOFT BOOTS IF YOU'RE
GOING TO DO STEEP, HARD or CRUSTY/UNPREDICTABLE SURFACE DESCENTS!!! Like I
said, I've gathered my lumps, and encountering some hidden soft slab at high
speed with soft mountaineering boots in AT bindings resulted in a certain
portion of one of our BC areas to be renamed "face-plant ridge".

_ The Rossi Enduro is not what you are thinking of as a "soft
boot", but what the alpine skiing market is calling a soft boot.
It's basically a hard shell exo-skeleton over "softer" material.
The idea is to gain the support of a tradition plastic shell boot
with a much more comfortable "out of the box" fit. From what I've
read the Enduro comes pretty close to the Denali in ski
performance and weight. That's way at the far end of the scale.
It's basically an all mountian alpine skiing boot with a
vibram sole for AT bindings. Good "coach boot".

You should check out the boot reviews in Couloir Magazine for
what they say about the Enduro.

http://www.couloirmag.com/


Expensive lessons: If you're using AT boots and bindings you don't have to
spend the big $$$ on specialty AT skis, I have found a number of
all-mountain high performance DH skis to be VERY acceptable in the
back-country. You can grind a slot in the tail for your skins to attach to
(takes like 5 minutes and works just as well as the AT ski notch), you
should shop for the lightest DH skis for BC (since mine end up on my pack a
lot for those steep ascents and who wants heavy gear when you're doing all
of the work?) DH gear is always much more affordable for equivalent
performance characteristics.

_ If you look around you can get AT skis for roughly the same
price as downhill. If you're looking for used skis, of course
it's much easier to get regular DH skis. Some AT skis are
actually pretty cheap these days and some DH skis are pretty
light...


Personal preferences: I like non-glue skins, there are a number of skins
out there, my buddies with the sticky skins are always fu(!#g around with
their skins while I cruise on up the slopes, ski down, re-skin and repeat.
If you get snow build-up on your skis (because you didn't choose the right
wax, or because those damned sticky skins caused your skis to build up
snow...) then you're dicking around trying to get your skins to stick so you
can yo-yo. I personally have never had to resort to carrying cooking oil
for anything besides cooking, and that is fine with me.

_ HUH? what the $#@%$@# would you use cooking oil for on skins?
To ruin them? Anyway, there's lots of BC skiing that doesn't
fit into this model. While I haven't skiied NewFoundland, I
have skiied New England and I would in general reccomend a much
lighter setup. Particularly for someone a bit older and perhaps
less interested in skiing just the steeps.


Recommendation: Rent a few packages from good mountaineering shops, try
different boots, different bindings and skins (if possible), even try to get
some different adjustable poles to see what you like and develop your own
opinions, this will end up with you being happier with whatever you decide
to purchase in the end. The cost of a few rentals will be more than offset
in the long run since you'll end up buying something that you are already
confident will work for you.

_ This is definitely the best way to save money, no matter what I
or Vince or any magazine says, your choice of BC gear is going to
be a compromise in one direction or another and only you can
really know which ones make the most sense for the kind of skiing
you do. The most useful advice I can give is

1. Don't scrimp on boots, Spend the most time/money on getting
boots that fit and are comfortable.

2. You need to balance gear. The boots, bindings and skis all
need to work together properly and be roughly matched in the
lightweight vs. burley construction.

3. The easiest way to get a light setup is to get your skis
short. Particularly in the trees, you'll be happier with
shorter skis.

_ Have fun and don't forget to get some avalanche training
along the way....

_ Booker C. Bense


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_ HUH? what the $#@%$@# would you use cooking oil for on skins?
To ruin them? Anyway, there's lots of BC skiing that doesn't
fit into this model. While I haven't skiied NewFoundland, I
have skiied New England and I would in general reccomend a much
lighter setup. Particularly for someone a bit older and perhaps
less interested in skiing just the steeps.

Sooner or later, everybody I've skied with that uses sticky skins shows up
with a can of "PAM" to spray on their bases before or during the outing.
Not sure "what the $#@%$@# " it is supposed to do for you, but there it
is...big as life, taking up space in their packs, maybe it's a Colorado
thing, that dry snow can get kind downright sticky when conditions are just
so.


bbense+rec.skiing.backcountry.Sep.22.03@telemark. slac.stanford.edu wrote
in message ...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article b7rbb.402228$cF.125143@rwcrnsc53,
Vince wrote:
Bob, you're all over the page here...

2)I demo'd my son's Denalt/Fritschi/BanditXX combo and, although I
ended up breaking trail for two friends on snowshoes,I find this combo
is overkill for me.

_ If Denali's are too heavy, then I'm not sure Enduro's are going
to be much lighter. They may be more comfortable, but I don't
think they're much lighter. The Silveretta 500 is a nice binding,
but it's not that much lighter than a Fritschi, I have a pair
and I really like them as they allow me to choose boots according
to what terrain I plan to ski. Sometimes climbing boots just make
more sense, but you have to adapt your technique to the nature
of these boots. Skiing in climbing boots is definitely a challenge.


2)Will the mid-fat AT skis (such as Voile Carbon Surfs; Tua Titan; BD
Havoc and Mira) stand up to Newfie bc conditions, including boiler
plate, sastrugi, breakable crust, and steep pitches?

which one is it? Sounds like your son had you dialed for backcountry
skiing
(or anything but a touring day, you should join your buddies on snowshoes
if
that is what you're looking for).

_ Well, I suspect any of those skis would probably ski just fine,
provided you get them short enough and get a beefy enough boot
to edge them in difficult conditions. I've skiied the Mira and
it's definitely a nice stable all-around ski. Personally, if I
were you I'd be looking at things Dynafit bindings and Scarpa
Laser. The reality of BC skiing is that you spend the vast
majority of your time going uphill, you have to decide how
much you want to compromise the downhill control part to
arrive at the top with enough energy to ski down.

_ You should check out Lou Dawson's web page.

http://www.wildsnow.com/

Lot's of useful advice and tips.

I live in Colorado, so we are constantly
doing huge vert in a day trip or stuff you can't even imagine in
multi-day
outings. I have earned my stripes and gathered my lumps along the way
with
equipment experimentation. Not having done any N.E. backcountry skiing I
will give you the following advice: STAY AWAY FROM SOFT BOOTS IF YOU'RE
GOING TO DO STEEP, HARD or CRUSTY/UNPREDICTABLE SURFACE DESCENTS!!! Like
I
said, I've gathered my lumps, and encountering some hidden soft slab at
high
speed with soft mountaineering boots in AT bindings resulted in a certain
portion of one of our BC areas to be renamed "face-plant ridge".

_ The Rossi Enduro is not what you are thinking of as a "soft
boot", but what the alpine skiing market is calling a soft boot.
It's basically a hard shell exo-skeleton over "softer" material.
The idea is to gain the support of a tradition plastic shell boot
with a much more comfortable "out of the box" fit. From what I've
read the Enduro comes pretty close to the Denali in ski
performance and weight. That's way at the far end of the scale.
It's basically an all mountian alpine skiing boot with a
vibram sole for AT bindings. Good "coach boot".

You should check out the boot reviews in Couloir Magazine for
what they say about the Enduro.

http://www.couloirmag.com/


Expensive lessons: If you're using AT boots and bindings you don't have
to
spend the big $$$ on specialty AT skis, I have found a number of
all-mountain high performance DH skis to be VERY acceptable in the
back-country. You can grind a slot in the tail for your skins to attach
to
(takes like 5 minutes and works just as well as the AT ski notch), you
should shop for the lightest DH skis for BC (since mine end up on my pack
a
lot for those steep ascents and who wants heavy gear when you're doing
all
of the work?) DH gear is always much more affordable for equivalent
performance characteristics.

_ If you look around you can get AT skis for roughly the same
price as downhill. If you're looking for used skis, of course
it's much easier to get regular DH skis. Some AT skis are
actually pretty cheap these days and some DH skis are pretty
light...


Personal preferences: I like non-glue skins, there are a number of skins
out there, my buddies with the sticky skins are always fu(!#g around
with
their skins while I cruise on up the slopes, ski down, re-skin and
repeat.
If you get snow build-up on your skis (because you didn't choose the
right
wax, or because those damned sticky skins caused your skis to build up
snow...) then you're dicking around trying to get your skins to stick so
you
can yo-yo. I personally have never had to resort to carrying cooking oil
for anything besides cooking, and that is fine with me.

_ HUH? what the $#@%$@# would you use cooking oil for on skins?
To ruin them? Anyway, there's lots of BC skiing that doesn't
fit into this model. While I haven't skiied NewFoundland, I
have skiied New England and I would in general reccomend a much
lighter setup. Particularly for someone a bit older and perhaps
less interested in skiing just the steeps.


Recommendation: Rent a few packages from good mountaineering shops, try
different boots, different bindings and skins (if possible), even try to
get
some different adjustable poles to see what you like and develop your own
opinions, this will end up with you being happier with whatever you
decide
to purchase in the end. The cost of a few rentals will be more than
offset
in the long run since you'll end up buying something that you are already
confident will work for you.

_ This is definitely the best way to save money, no matter what I
or Vince or any magazine says, your choice of BC gear is going to
be a compromise in one direction or another and only you can
really know which ones make the most sense for the kind of skiing
you do. The most useful advice I can give is

1. Don't scrimp on boots, Spend the most time/money on getting
boots that fit and are comfortable.

2. You need to balance gear. The boots, bindings and skis all
need to work together properly and be roughly matched in the
lightweight vs. burley construction.

3. The easiest way to get a light setup is to get your skis
short. Particularly in the trees, you'll be happier with
shorter skis.

_ Have fun and don't forget to get some avalanche training
along the way....

_ Booker C. Bense


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In article 6GXbb.553541$Ho3.96806@sccrnsc03,
Vinnie wrote:
_ HUH? what the $#@%$@# would you use cooking oil for on skins?
To ruin them? Anyway, there's lots of BC skiing that doesn't
fit into this model. While I haven't skiied NewFoundland, I
have skiied New England and I would in general reccomend a much
lighter setup. Particularly for someone a bit older and perhaps
less interested in skiing just the steeps.

Sooner or later, everybody I've skied with that uses sticky skins shows up
with a can of "PAM" to spray on their bases before or during the outing.
Not sure "what the $#@%$@# " it is supposed to do for you, but there it
is...big as life, taking up space in their packs, maybe it's a Colorado
thing, that dry snow can get kind downright sticky when conditions are just
so.


_ As far as I know the only non-sticky skins you can get are the
Voile Snake skins which I would not reccomend for anything but
straight up and down yo-yo skiing.

_ The PAM thing still makes no sense to me. Do they spray it on
the P-Tex base or on the knap side of the skins?

_ Booker c. Bense

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On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:41:51 +0000 (UTC),
bbense+rec.skiing.backcountry.Sep.23.03@telemark. slac.stanford.edu
wrote:

_ As far as I know the only non-sticky skins you can get are the
Voile Snake skins which I would not reccomend for anything but
straight up and down yo-yo skiing.

_ The PAM thing still makes no sense to me. Do they spray it on
the P-Tex base or on the knap side of the skins?

I have used skin wax on the fuzzy side, to keep our New England
"powder" from sticking to them, especially helpful with wet, goopy
snow, or certain temp ranges where refreezing is an issue.

I have heard of people using spray silicon for really wet conditions,
also on the fuzzy side, but overspray is a concern.

Not sure is making your gear smell like food is really wise.

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

Sooner or later, everybody I've skied with that uses sticky skins shows up
with a can of "PAM" to spray on their bases before or during the outing.
Not sure "what the $#@%$@# " it is supposed to do for you, but there it
is...big as life, taking up space in their packs, maybe it's a Colorado
thing, that dry snow can get kind downright sticky when conditions are just
so.


I don't know who you are skiing with, but in my ~15 years skiing in
Colorado exclusively with people with sticky skins, I've never seen a
can of Pam or anything of the sort....

--Chris

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article ,
Gary S. Idontwantspam@net wrote:

I have used skin wax on the fuzzy side, to keep our New England
"powder" from sticking to them, especially helpful with wet, goopy
snow, or certain temp ranges where refreezing is an issue.

_ In the Sierra, this is pretty much an everyday issue and
I highly reccommend Ascension Gob Stopper wax. Makes a big
difference in how wet and heavy your skins are at the end of
a day.


I have heard of people using spray silicon for really wet conditions,
also on the fuzzy side, but overspray is a concern.


_ I've seen various spray on things, some even sold by the
skin manufacturers. Gob Stopper works for me.

_ Booker C. Bense

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On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:51:30 +0000 (UTC),
bbense+rec.skiing.backcountry.Sep.23.03@telemark. slac.stanford.edu
wrote:

_ In the Sierra, this is pretty much an everyday issue and
I highly reccommend Ascension Gob Stopper wax. Makes a big
difference in how wet and heavy your skins are at the end of
a day.

I have heard of people using spray silicon for really wet conditions,
also on the fuzzy side, but overspray is a concern.


_ I've seen various spray on things, some even sold by the
skin manufacturers. Gob Stopper works for me.

I don't recall the brand name on the skin wax I am using, but it is
pinkish. I like the simplicity and light weight. It is somewhere in
the pockets of my tele boot bag.

Nice not to have to wring out the skins when packing them away.

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

In article ,
bbense+rec.skiing.backcountry.Sep.23.03@telemark. slac.stanford.edu
wrote:

_ In the Sierra, this is pretty much an everyday issue and
I highly reccommend Ascension Gob Stopper wax.


And for waxless (fishscale) skiis?