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Has anyone ever skied the WB trail in Underhill, Vermont?



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 15th 03, 04:32 AM
Lew Lasher
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Default Has anyone ever skied the WB trail in Underhill, Vermont?

This past weekend I was doing some GPS hiking in Underhill, Vermont to
try to map some trails there. I hiked the CCC Road and parts of the
Teardrop trail, but I couldn't find any trace of the WB trail - which is
supposedly now called the Underhill trail, but that is a moot point if
there are no trail signs and possibly no trail even. I did notice in
David Goodman's chapter on the Teardrop trail that he commented that the
Underhill/WB trail is poorly maintained.

Has anyone ever been on this trail? Do you recall what kind of blazes,
if any, were on the trail? Were there any trail signs for it at any of
the 3 or 4 junctions that it supposedly has with other trails? Do you
have a dog that perhaps remembers the scent of this trail?

Thanks for any clues,

Lew Lasher
Cambridge, Massachusetts and Stowe, Vermont


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  #2  
Old September 16th 03, 09:04 PM
Nick Branch
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No, I haven't. But this trail is marked on the Adventure Skiing Map
available for the area's bc trails. This trail is also discussed in the
selected trails section of the map, so I would think it would be somewhat
visible. This map indicates the trail diverges right (SE) from the CCC trail
at about 2230'. The Halfway House hiking trail leaves the Underhill trail to
the North just a few dozen feet from this junction. Did you see signage for
this trail?
"Lew Lasher" wrote in message
...
This past weekend I was doing some GPS hiking in Underhill, Vermont to
try to map some trails there. I hiked the CCC Road and parts of the
Teardrop trail, but I couldn't find any trace of the WB trail - which is
supposedly now called the Underhill trail, but that is a moot point if






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  #3  
Old September 16th 03, 09:46 PM
Gary S.
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On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 17:04:14 -0400, "Nick Branch"
wrote:

No, I haven't. But this trail is marked on the Adventure Skiing Map
available for the area's bc trails. This trail is also discussed in the
selected trails section of the map, so I would think it would be somewhat
visible. This map indicates the trail diverges right (SE) from the CCC trail
at about 2230'. The Halfway House hiking trail leaves the Underhill trail to
the North just a few dozen feet from this junction. Did you see signage for
this trail?
"Lew Lasher" wrote in message
...
This past weekend I was doing some GPS hiking in Underhill, Vermont to
try to map some trails there. I hiked the CCC Road and parts of the
Teardrop trail, but I couldn't find any trace of the WB trail - which is
supposedly now called the Underhill trail, but that is a moot point if

I don't have it in front of me, but David Goodman has published a book
published by the AMC:

Backcountry Skiing Adventures: Classic Ski and Snowboard Tours in
Vermont and New York, 2000
ISBN: 1-878239-70-8 AMC Product ID: 2589

This is a follow up to his book a bit befo

Backcountry Skiing Adventures: Classic Ski and Snowboard Tours in
Maine and New Hampshire 1998
ISBN: 1-878239-64-3 AMC Product ID: 1067

Both books get into the history of skiing in New England, and how to
find and ski the original ski trails such as the CCC ones.

There is also a site for the Lost Ski Areas of New England:
http://www.nelsap.org/

Which goes way back and collects info on many of the older ski areas
that no longer exist as organized ski areas.

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom
  #4  
Old September 17th 03, 04:34 AM
Lew Lasher
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I had the Adventure Skiing map with me, and I looked really hard in the places
where this map showed that there ought to have been junctions (with the CCC road
and with the lower Teardrop trail), to no avail. The hiking trails were all
clearly marked. Incidentally, the Teardrop trail (which, although unmarked, was
pretty obvious) is incorrectly shown on the Adventure Skiing map as crossing the
CCC road at a 4-way junction. It would be very unfortunate to rely on this error
and to ski downhill across the CCC road at full speed. There is a small clearing
there, with a pleasant view, but no more trail. As David Goodman correctly
describes, you need to turn left on the CCC road and then turn right soon
afterwards to continue downhill onto the lower part of the Teardrop trail. (And,
as I said in my previous post on this thread, David Goodman did say that the
WB/Underhill trail was poorly marked/maintained.)

This is why it is worthwhile to go GPS hiking and make your own maps. Commercial
maps have errors. For (another) example, the Adventure Skiing map's depiction of
the upper Burt trail where it meets the upper Skytop trail is basically
fictitious (having the same errors as on the maps put out earlier by the Stowe
Mountain Resort). And, even though it only has contour lines at 100 foot
intervals, there are certain critical points on Skytop Ridge whose elevation is
incorrect by more than 100 feet. But I've found the map helpful in giving me a
general idea where to look for trails so that I can map them accurately myself.

The WB/Underhill trail supposedly continues south from the undetectable junction
with the Teardrop trail to cross the Frost and Butler Lodge hiking trails before
terminating at the Overland ski trail. I'll go back at some point to these other
trails and look for evidence of trail junctions.

Lew Lasher
Cambridge, Massachusetts and Stowe, Vermont

"Gary S." wrote:

On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 17:04:14 -0400, "Nick Branch"
wrote:

No, I haven't. But this trail is marked on the Adventure Skiing Map
available for the area's bc trails. This trail is also discussed in the
selected trails section of the map, so I would think it would be somewhat
visible. This map indicates the trail diverges right (SE) from the CCC trail
at about 2230'. The Halfway House hiking trail leaves the Underhill trail to
the North just a few dozen feet from this junction. Did you see signage for
this trail?
"Lew Lasher" wrote in message
...
This past weekend I was doing some GPS hiking in Underhill, Vermont to
try to map some trails there. I hiked the CCC Road and parts of the
Teardrop trail, but I couldn't find any trace of the WB trail - which is
supposedly now called the Underhill trail, but that is a moot point if

I don't have it in front of me, but David Goodman has published a book
published by the AMC:

Backcountry Skiing Adventures: Classic Ski and Snowboard Tours in
Vermont and New York, 2000
ISBN: 1-878239-70-8 AMC Product ID: 2589


  #5  
Old September 17th 03, 12:09 PM
Nick Branch
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I'm not suprised about the inaccuracys in the location of the teardrop
trail. I don't believe its origin at the summit isn't accurately depicted on
the map either. This is why I like skiing in the Gaspe so much, trails are
optional, mountains and rivers move more slowly .
"Lew Lasher" wrote in message
...
I had the Adventure Skiing map with me, and I looked really hard in the

places
where this map showed that there ought to have been junctions (with the

CCC road
and with the lower Teardrop trail), to no avail. The hiking trails were

all
clearly marked. Incidentally, the Teardrop trail (which, although

unmarked, was





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  #6  
Old September 17th 03, 12:13 PM
Ken Roberts
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I skied on the WB trail, I guess about five years ago. I just dug out my Mt
Mansfield topo maps, and I have penned in that it has red-orange markings.

I started at the Mt Mansfield touring center with the goal of making a big
loop around the Forehead and Needles Eye. I skinned up the Bruce trail and
skied down the upper Teardrop. I then tried to take the CCC road south, but
after the start I could not figure out where it went, so I went back and
skied down the Teardrop a little further.

I remembered that I've missed the WB trail before skiing down the Teardrop,
so I looked carefully and found it this time. I don't remember any big
problems following the red-orange markings. Then I climbed NE up another
trail on skins, but when I reached the Butler Lodge I realized that I had
taken a wrong turn, so I went back down again.

I continued south on the WB trail and it hit the Underhill trail, which I
remember had some snowshoe tracks. I climbed east on the Underhill trail to
the Needles Eye. My plan was to ski down the Overland trail back to my
start point.

But I couldn't find the Overland trail there by the Needles Eye. There had
been a big windstorm in the previous year, so perhaps they had not cleaned
up that trail yet.

Finally I gave up and skied down the Underhill trail west to the road, then
skated and poled on the road in the dark until I found a building with
lights on. They let me call Sharon at the Mt Mansfield Touring Center, and
she drove all the way around and retrieved me.

Now _my_ question is about the Overland trail.

Ken


  #7  
Old September 17th 03, 10:13 PM
Lew Lasher
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I remembered that I've missed the WB trail before skiing down the Teardrop,
so I looked carefully and found it this time. I don't remember any big
problems following the red-orange markings.


Interesting: I did see a lot of orange-ish paint blazes, at an acute angle fork
to the left of the lower Teardrop. I followed these blazes through the forest
(to the point where I wouldn't call it a trail) until it led back to the
Teardrop trail (at which point I was grateful to be on a trail). That could
have been part of the WB "trail".

Then I climbed NE up another
trail on skins, but when I reached the Butler Lodge I realized that I had
taken a wrong turn, so I went back down again.


Probably the Butler Lodge hiking trail.

I continued south on the WB trail and it hit the Underhill trail, which I
remember had some snowshoe tracks. I climbed east on the Underhill trail to
the Needles Eye. My plan was to ski down the Overland trail back to my
start point.


By the way, there seems to be some difference of opinion as to exactly which set
of boulders is the real "Needles Eye." The USGS topo map uses this name for the
point near where the Underhill trail (or is it Overland at this point?) crosses
the ridge, somewhat east of the Long Trail. However, some other maps call this
point Devil's Dishpan, and consider the Needle's Eye to be another set of
boulders, a little further north, right along the Long Trail, near the junction
with the Forehead Bypass trail. If I am thinking of the right boulders in each
case, the ones further north are smaller. The ones further south are pretty
huge.

Is this a navigational comedy of errors, or what?

But I couldn't find the Overland trail there by the Needles Eye. There had
been a big windstorm in the previous year, so perhaps they had not cleaned
up that trail yet.


I had that problem once or twice while hiking or snowshoeing up from the west
(Underhill) side. I don't think it was because of bad trail conditions; I think
I was just looking in the wrong place, even though I now know that I was very,
very close to where I wanted to be. But when I came over from the east side, it
was much easier to follow. Fortunately, now I have that section mapped. See:

http://tripmaps.home.att.net/ski/smr...field-quad.gif

(Note: the westernmost part of the Underhill trail on this map is probably the
Butler Lodge trail. It seems to be better maintained than the Underhill ski
trail, which I still need to go back and map. At least I know how to find the
west end of the Underhill trail, off of the western end of the Nebraska Notch
trail.)

Now _my_ question is about the Overland trail.


I've got GPS coordinates and printable maps.

Thanks for the clues about the WB trail. Which, by the way, I think we should
continue to call the WB trail (unless we get sued by AOL Time Warner?), rather
than the suggested new name of "Underhill trail", since there already is another
trail (with actual trail signs, although some of these are disintegrating)
called the Underhill trail.

Lew Lasher
Cambridge, Massachusetts and Stowe, Vermont


  #8  
Old September 17th 03, 10:54 PM
Lew Lasher
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I skied on the WB trail, I guess about five years ago. I just dug out my Mt
Mansfield topo maps, and I have penned in that it has red-orange markings.


Interesting: while I was trying to follow the lower Teardrop trail, I did notice
a lot of orange-ish paint blazes, at a very acute angle fork to the left of the
lower Teardrop. I followed these blazes through the forest (to the point where
I wouldn't call it a trail) until it led back to the Teardrop trail (at which
point I was grateful to be on a trail). That could have been part of the WB
"trail".

I started at the Mt Mansfield touring center with the goal of making a big
loop around the Forehead and Needles Eye. I skinned up the Bruce trail and
skied down the upper Teardrop. I then tried to take the CCC road south, but
after the start I could not figure out where it went, so I went back and
skied down the Teardrop a little further.


That makes sense to me. The CCC road, south of the junction with the lower
Teardrop trail, does not go very far before hitting the Maple Ridge hiking
trail, which you probably did well to avoid.

I don't remember any big
problems following the red-orange markings. Then I climbed NE up another
trail on skins, but when I reached the Butler Lodge I realized that I had
taken a wrong turn, so I went back down again.


This was probably the Butler Lodge trail. The WB trail, south of the Teardrop
trail, crosses the Frost hiking trail (which might not be used a lot in the
winter?) and then the Butler Lodge trail.

I continued south on the WB trail and it hit the Underhill trail, which I
remember had some snowshoe tracks. I climbed east on the Underhill trail to
the Needles Eye. My plan was to ski down the Overland trail back to my
start point.


A good plan.

By the way, there seems to be some difference of opinion as to exactly which set
of boulders is the real "Needles Eye." The USGS topo map uses this name for the
point near where the Underhill trail crosses the ridge, somewhat east of the
Long Trail. However, some other maps call this point Devil's Dishpan, and
consider the Needle's Eye to be another set of boulders, a little further north,
right along the Long Trail, near the junction with the Forehead Bypass trail.
If I am thinking of the right boulders in each case, the ones further north are
smaller. The ones further south are pretty huge.

Is this a navigational comedy of errors, or what?

But I couldn't find the Overland trail there by the Needles Eye. There had
been a big windstorm in the previous year, so perhaps they had not cleaned
up that trail yet.


I had that problem once or twice while hiking or snowshoeing up from the west
side (town of Underhill). I don't think it was because of bad trail conditions;
I think I was just looking in the wrong place, even though I now know that I was
very, very close to where I wanted to be. But when I came over from the east
side (town of Stowe), it was much easier to follow. Fortunately, now I have
that section mapped. See:

http://tripmaps.home.att.net/ski/smr...field-quad.gif

(Note: I'm not confident that the westernmost part of the Underhill trail shown
on this map, west of the Long Trail, is really the "correct" route. When you go
up from Stevensville Road, the most obvious trail to take is not the Underhill
trail, but a trail that forks off southward from the Frost and Butler Lodge
hiking trails. I'm not sure what this trail is called, but it works perfectly
fine to get you up and over the ridge. My understanding is that, to get to the
"correct" Underhill ski trail, you are supposed to take the Nebraska Notch trail
- even further south, the trail on the right when you first start out - and
then, very soon, bear left. I still have to go back and follow this trail to
see where it eventually meets up with the more obvious trail.)

Now _my_ question is about the Overland trail.


I've got GPS coordinates and printable maps.

Thanks for the clues about the WB trail. Which, by the way, I think we should
continue to call the WB trail (unless we get sued by AOL Time Warner?), rather
than the suggested new name of "Underhill trail", since there already is another
trail (with actual trail signs, although some of these are disintegrating)
called the Underhill trail.

Lew Lasher
Cambridge, Massachusetts and Stowe, Vermont


  #9  
Old September 22nd 03, 01:38 AM
Lew Lasher
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Another unsuccessful attempt yesterday to locate the elusive WB trail. This
time I hiked up the trail formerly known as the Underhill trail from
Stevensville. (Those who would rename the WB trail as the Underhill trail would
rename the western half of the Underhill trail as the Overland trail.) I got
most of it on the GPS, which is nice. I also confirmed something I had
previously suspected, which is that there are two routes you can take from
Stevensville to get to the Underhill trail; the branches converge just a little
bit west of the Long trail. (This means, more importantly, that, when
descending from the Long trail, it's OK to take either trail at the fork.)
Also, I learned some tips for following the Underhill trail over the ridge.
First, when you reach the Long trail, you have to turn right on the Long trail
for, well, only a few feet, but if you turn left, you will lose the Underhill
trail. Second, if you make it to the boulder formation that is either the
Devil's Dishpan or (possibly but disputedly) Needle's Eye (as happened to Ken
Roberts), then you aren't very far off the trail at all. You should have made a
right turn just a few feet before the boulders. So, if you get to the boulders,
just turn around, and look for a left turn going uphill. I even followed the
Underhill trail east of the ridge to the junction with the Overland trail. This
was the only place anywhere along the trail where there was a sign with a trail
name. This sign had arrows in both directions (east/west) indicating "Underhill
trail." So, as far as I'm concerned, the part of the trail west of the ridge,
and on down to Stevensville, is still the "Underhill trail", unless and until
someone puts up some signs along the trail indicating otherwise. (Bogus trail
maps posted at the trailhead don't count.)

And, as far as I'm concerned, the WB trail no longer exists, which avoids the
question of whether to rename it the Underhill trail. I hiked down the (real)
Underhill trail very slowly, and looked up from my GPS receiver enough to check
for any break in the trees that looked the least bit trail-like. I found
nothing that looked like a real trail, and no blazes.

I might make one more attempt by hiking the Frost trail, which the WB trail is
supposed to cross on its way from the lower Teardrop trail to the (real)
Underhill trail. I'd be awfully surprised if I found anything. After that, I
might go back in the winter to look for tracks.

Incidentally, I need to correct something I complained about earlier on the Map
Adventures map, specifically about the Teardrop trail. The first version of the
map incorrectly showed the junction with the CCC trail to be a 4-way
intersection, but this has been fixed in the second version of the map.

Lew Lasher
Cambridge, Massachusetts and Stowe, Vermont


 




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