Carving Technique

I'm having a lot of problems learning how to carve. I know that it's quite a
complicated exercise so I'm not going to ask exactly how it's done. Indeed,
I've covered the basics at my ski class (just finishing a 12 week block of
lessons). I'd be very grateful if someone could answer the following questions:

1. I've been told to move forward diagonally. My instructor said that this was
in order to make the ski bend. I understand this principle but I don't know how
to implement it.

- When I move my waist (to set the edges), do I move diagonally forward in the
opposite direction??
I understand that I've got to make a 'C' shape with my body (if turning left)
so that my edges can be set without losing my balance but I don't know how to
develop that further.

I know that I've got to work on making the turns smoother (by pushing down on
the inside leg to start the next turn) and to be aware of my knees etc too but
the forward motion is confusing me.

My instructor gave me two exercises to do - one involved throwing my arms
forward diagonally and the other involved making a double pole-plant in front
of my skis (to ensure that my weight was forward). Nonetheless, without knowing
exactly WHERE and WHEN to throw my weight, I wasn't able to benefit from the
exercise.

2. How does the forward (+ diagonal) motion affect my skis? For example, when
I'm skiing parallel, I try to flex the 'outside' boot. When carving, am I still
trying to do this? Am I try to flex both boots (since the edge of the ski will
make the turn). Alternatively, should I just been rolling my weight from one
ski to the other without 'flexing' the boots at all?

Sorry to be a bit pedantic. I've only got 1 lesson left so am really trying to
get this right!! Thanks in advance for any help

Niall

"NIALLBRUCE" wrote in message
...
I'm having a lot of problems learning how to carve. I know that it's quite
a
complicated exercise so I'm not going to ask exactly how it's done.
Indeed,
I've covered the basics at my ski class (just finishing a 12 week block of
lessons). I'd be very grateful if someone could answer the following
questions:

The problem is that skiing is very hard to describe in words and what might
be a good exercise to correct a particular problem cannot usually be
considered in isolation - skiing requires movement of many parts of the body
at different times.

Take a look at the words and video clips at
http://www.ifyouski.com/technique/warrencarving/
These are taken from "Warren Smith Ski Academy Lesson 1" which I highly
recommend even though it is supposed to be for intermediates and advanced.
(I've got 2 as well but it is less clear and I may well get lesson 3 soon -
Snow+Rock stocks them all)

Re. "Move forward diagonally" You are probably sitting back rather than
pushing your shins forward - You can "bend your knees!" both ways but
sitting back doesn't put pressure on the front of the ski and wont turn it.
The forward thing is probably also to get you to move your hips.

On 14 Dec 2004 00:10:29 GMT, (NIALLBRUCE) wrote:

I'm having a lot of problems learning how to carve. I know that it's quite a
complicated exercise so I'm not going to ask exactly how it's done.

It's not complicated at all!

Indeed,
I've covered the basics at my ski class (just finishing a 12 week block of
lessons). I'd be very grateful if someone could answer the following questions:

I'll try, but if you've just done 12-weeks of lessons, how come it's
not been covered?

1. I've been told to move forward diagonally. My instructor said that this was
in order to make the ski bend. I understand this principle but I don't know how
to implement it.

- When I move my waist (to set the edges), do I move diagonally forward in the
opposite direction??

Oh Lordy. One of the main things I got from doing several courses with
Phil Smith et al. was to not try and fix on specific body positions.
What your instructor was telling you was something specific to you, at
that particular time, and may not (will not) extrapolate to other
people or other times.

snip body shapes

What you really need to do is concentrate on the skis. Sure, it's your
body that makes them work, but simply trying to adopt a certain shape
and hoping it will make them work is a teaching method that's been
dropped by just about all national ski schools, except possibly the
Austrians.

My instructor gave me two exercises to do - one involved throwing my arms
forward diagonally and the other involved making a double pole-plant in front
of my skis (to ensure that my weight was forward). Nonetheless, without knowing
exactly WHERE and WHEN to throw my weight, I wasn't able to benefit from the
exercise.

I think someone's getting confused here. Such dynamic weight changes
serve to initiate a turn by shifting weight from one ski to the other,
but have no place in what most people would call "carving". Certainly
there are many situations where the above technique would be useful.

"Carving", however, involves, almost by definition, no pole plant (or
poles) at all, and no dramatic weight-change. You're trying to get a
smooth gradual carving turn with no specific start or end points. In
practice, it's normally just about pushing down on the turning ski -
the body shope required for this should just happen :-)

Sorry to be a bit pedantic. I've only got 1 lesson left so am really trying to
get this right!! Thanks in advance for any help

I suggest you try and clarify with your instructor when he's trying to
teach you "carving" and when he isn't. If he's really talking about
pole-plants and carving as part of the same thing you might want to
get a new instructor :-)

--
Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
Ski Club of Great Britain - http://www.skiclub.co.uk
All opinions expressed are personal and in no way represent those of the Ski Club.

Thanks Ace! My instructor is called Mez - I think he's a good racer?? (don't
know if you've ever encountered him!). He seems to be very good but it's a
mixed class. I'll try to get some private tuition on holiday but I'm worried
about the pennies.

At the moment, we're skiing on dendex (possibly with blunt skis) so that's not
much help. However, I have managed the occasional 'carve' so know that it is
possible. I just don't know how to repeat it!

My instructor said that the top racers keep their heads down and straighten
diagonally forwards rather than upwards. I think that I really need to work on
this element because I've learnt (skiing parallel) how important balance is to
skiing.

"Carving", however, involves, almost by definition, no pole plant (or
poles) at all, and no dramatic weight-change.
- that's really interesting! Can I conclude that the 'old' pole-plant could
actually be a problem?
e.g. When I'm trying to carve, I need to set my edges but have to shift my
balance the other way ('C' shape) in order to do that. In the case of turning
left, am I correct in thinking that my right shoulder should be lower - thus
contradicting the traditional pole-plant?

it's normally just about pushing down on the turning ski -
the body shope required for this should just happen
I really don't want to take this out of context but it would be great if you
could clarify this idea further! I've found that i do lean too far back during
turns (when trying to carve). I think that it's a comfort thing as I'm so used
to 'skidding' on the dendex. In order to stop this bad habit, what should I do?
Would it help if I thought about shifting my weight towards the tip of the
'outside' ski??

There's a number of other things which I have to work on e.g. keeping one ski
slightly in front of the other (apparently affects the angles at your waist),
and making sure that my inside ski keeps contact with the snow (another bad
habit). I'm really struggling to learn on the dry slope though - it's really
short - so am just trying to get everything in my mind right before I go on the
holiday.

Thanks again for your help!!
Niall

On 14 Dec 2004 10:02:16 GMT, (NIALLBRUCE) wrote:

Thanks Ace! My instructor is called Mez - I think he's a good racer?? (don't
know if you've ever encountered him!).

No I haven't - it's not really very likely, is it?

My instructor said that the top racers keep their heads down and straighten
diagonally forwards rather than upwards.

Racers have to analyse their stance, weight distribution etc. etc. in
minute detail to try and get the tiniest edge over their competitors.
Normal skiers don't need to, and unless you're going to make a career
of it, shouldn't.

I think that I really need to work on
this element because I've learnt (skiing parallel) how important balance is to
skiing.

I think you should stop thinking about your body position and start
trying to feel what the ski is doing.

"Carving", however, involves, almost by definition, no pole plant (or
poles) at all, and no dramatic weight-change.

- that's really interesting! Can I conclude that the 'old' pole-plant could
actually be a problem?

Only if/when you're trying to carve. Which is not something you can,
or should, be doing _all_ the time (although a certain Mr. Ross[1]
would argue otherwise).

e.g. When I'm trying to carve, I need to set my edges but have to shift my
balance the other way ('C' shape) in order to do that. In the case of turning
left, am I correct in thinking that my right shoulder should be lower - thus
contradicting the traditional pole-plant?

No idea. For me, carving is something that happens from the hips
downwards. Sure, my upper body is probably in a certain position most
of the time I'm doing it, but it's not something I think about. And I
do think it's probably not helping you to concentrate on this area.

it's normally just about pushing down on the turning ski -
the body shope required for this should just happen

I really don't want to take this out of context but it would be great if you
could clarify this idea further! I've found that i do lean too far back during
turns (when trying to carve). I think that it's a comfort thing as I'm so used
to 'skidding' on the dendex. In order to stop this bad habit, what should I do?
Would it help if I thought about shifting my weight towards the tip of the
'outside' ski??

It might, but that's really something only your instructor would be
able to comment on. If your weight's too far back then yes, you may
need something to focus on to enable you to get it forwards, and
thinking about shoulders might help, but IME it's mostly in the legs.

I actually struggled with this for years, being unable to keep my
weight forward - I finally solved it, not through body position or
anything, but from finding out that it takes an action of my
ankle/shin muscles to pull myself forwards, rather than what I'd been
trying to do for years, which was to put my body in such a place as to
push my weight forwards. This latter would work on occasion, but if
anything hapenned to upset the balance I'd be thrown backwards and
lose the plot completely.

The muscle action that I found was the same one you'd use to lift your
foot upwards and stretch the calf muscle. Which, when the foot is
fixed, will obviously move the shin forward instead. Then it['s a case
of keeping this muscle tensed all the time I'm skiing.

There's a number of other things which I have to work on e.g. keeping one ski
slightly in front of the other (apparently affects the angles at your waist),
and making sure that my inside ski keeps contact with the snow (another bad
habit). I'm really struggling to learn on the dry slope though - it's really
short - so am just trying to get everything in my mind right before I go on the
holiday.

Relax, it will be a lot easier on real snow, and it shouldn't hurt so
much when you fall over either. Don't expect to be perfect from the
word go; I'm sure it'll come with practice.


[1] Ali Ross, BASI trainer who pioneered the 'carving' idea years
ahead of his time. He really does carve _everywhere_ and was doing so,
and teaching it to others, long before carving skis had been invented.
Nice guy, but a little narrow-minded, IMO.

--
Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
Ski Club of Great Britain - http://www.skiclub.co.uk
All opinions expressed are personal and in no way represent those of the Ski Club.

Hi Niall,

I've typed out a really usefull and highly valuable response to your
post, but Google Groups has helped me to loose it twice now, so I'm
afraid you get the edited version. Anyway, Nick & Ace already sent you
some very useful stuff.

What I wanted to add was that excercises and "positions" your
instructor gives you are there to emphasise a particular point or maybe
work on a particular aspect. Don't try and combine every tip,
excercise, position, pole-plant, head-up, ankles bent into every
turn... you can't! Try the exercises from time to time but also try and
just ski for the enjoyment of it.

You'll always be learning, and a 12 lesson course (esp. on plastic)
won't teach you all there is to learn. I've been skiing for years and
I'm still learning. The main thing is to get out there and enjoy it. So
long as you are in control and having fun then you are doing fine. If
you want to perfect your technique I'd recommend one-on-one lessons on
snow with an experienced and enthusiastic instructor who speaks your
language fluently.

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 07:33:45 GMT, "Nick Hounsome"
wrote:


Take a look at the words and video clips at
http://www.ifyouski.com/technique/warrencarving/

Excellent site. Really useful clips and explanation on that and
related pages. Definitely worth the OP studying.

--
Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
Ski Club of Great Britain - http://www.skiclub.co.uk
All opinions expressed are personal and in no way represent those of the Ski Club.

"NIALLBRUCE" wrote in message
...
Thanks Ace! My instructor is called Mez - I think he's a good racer??
(don't
know if you've ever encountered him!). He seems to be very good but it's a
mixed class. I'll try to get some private tuition on holiday but I'm
worried
about the pennies.

Don't worry about private - group lessons will be fine.


At the moment, we're skiing on dendex (possibly with blunt skis) so that's
not
much help. However, I have managed the occasional 'carve' so know that it
is
possible. I just don't know how to repeat it!

Is dendex the coarse stuff or the finer stuff? Neither is really any good.

Snow is MUCH easier than plastic - so much so that I personally don't think
that it is worth the money for beginners to try to learn on plastic before
they go - learn what skis and boot feel like and do a snow plough fine but
carving no-way.

The main problems I have with plastic are that it is slow, short and has
uneven friction - this is a particular problem for beginners because you are
trying to learn the feelings in your body when you ski properly but on
plastic and at low speed you are mostly just feeling the speed variations in
the plastic.

On snow you will be able to travel long distances slowly and smoothly which
will give you a chance to feel how your body position affects the skis. In
some ways it is more like ice skating than dry slope skiing.


My instructor said that the top racers keep their heads down and
straighten
diagonally forwards rather than upwards. I think that I really need to
work on
this element because I've learnt (skiing parallel) how important balance
is to
skiing.

"Carving", however, involves, almost by definition, no pole plant (or
poles) at all, and no dramatic weight-change.
- that's really interesting! Can I conclude that the 'old' pole-plant
could
actually be a problem?

The pole plant is brilliant for getting the body weight forward and
downhill - yes you side slip but for me - my biggest improvement step ever
came from forcing myself to reach forward and downhill to plant a pole -
from then on I found steeps held no fear for me. Ok it's not the end of the
road but as an intermediate step it helped me a lot.

e.g. When I'm trying to carve, I need to set my edges but have to shift my
balance the other way ('C' shape) in order to do that. In the case of
turning
left, am I correct in thinking that my right shoulder should be lower -
thus
contradicting the traditional pole-plant?

I don't see how it could be. If you are turning left you plant your left
pole so it's hard to see how your right shoulder could be lower. Actually
neither should be lower.


it's normally just about pushing down on the turning ski -
the body shope required for this should just happen
I really don't want to take this out of context but it would be great if
you
could clarify this idea further! I've found that i do lean too far back
during
turns (when trying to carve). I think that it's a comfort thing as I'm so
used
to 'skidding' on the dendex. In order to stop this bad habit, what should
I do?
Would it help if I thought about shifting my weight towards the tip of the
'outside' ski??

I think that is what your instructor is trying to get you to do.


There's a number of other things which I have to work on e.g. keeping one
ski
slightly in front of the other (apparently affects the angles at your
waist),
and making sure that my inside ski keeps contact with the snow (another
bad
habit). I'm really struggling to learn on the dry slope though - it's
really
short - so am just trying to get everything in my mind right before I go
on the
holiday.

Don't get hung up on carving - short swing turns (I think that's what
they're called - I'm not great on terminology) are where it's at. As a
beginner you will find that carving on anything other than the gentlest of
slopes will quickly cause you to be travelling too fast and then what are
you going to do?


Thanks again for your help!!
Niall

P.S. IMHO the shortness of dry slopes is the main reason that people spend
too much time picking up bad habits from snow-ploughing rather than learning
something useful.

"Nick Hounsome" wrote in message
k...


Snow is MUCH easier than plastic - so much so that I personally don't
think
that it is worth the money for beginners to try to learn on plastic before
they go - learn what skis and boot feel like and do a snow plough fine but
carving no-way.

....snip...

On snow you will be able to travel long distances slowly and smoothly
which
will give you a chance to feel how your body position affects the skis. In
some ways it is more like ice skating than dry slope skiing.


Oh tell me about it, snow is so much more slippy - be prepared Niall!

First time skiing on snow - I'd had 3 x 2 hours on a dry slope - went up the
mountain on a chair lift and inevitably fell off at the top. I then had to
ski under the chair to reach a nice flat piste. Not too steep I thought,
comparing it to the dry slope, and next thing I was barrelling down the
slope far too quickly for my limited ability and careered right across the
piste and into the deep packed snow at the edge of the piste. After being
rescued the instructor told me dryly that off piste was later in the week.
Of course my mates never remind me of this!

--
Paul Schofield

Time flies like an arrow
Fruit flies like a banana

Thanks Ace!
My instructor said that the top racers keep their heads down and
straighten
diagonally forwards rather than upwards.
..

I think that I really need to work on
this element because I've learnt (skiing parallel) how important balance
is to
skiing.

- that's really interesting! Can I conclude that the 'old' pole-plant
could
actually be a problem?

e.g. When I'm trying to carve, I need to set my edges but have to shift
my
balance the other way ('C' shape) in order to do that. In the case of
turning
left, am I correct in thinking that my right shoulder should be lower -
thus
contradicting the traditional pole-plant?

I really don't want to take this out of context but it would be great if
you
could clarify this idea further! I've found that i do lean too far back
during
turns (when trying to carve). I think that it's a comfort thing as I'm so
used
to 'skidding' on the dendex. In order to stop this bad habit, what should
I do?
Would it help if I thought about shifting my weight towards the tip of
the
'outside' ski??

The muscle action that I found was the same one you'd use to lift your
foot upwards and stretch the calf muscle. Which, when the foot is
fixed, will obviously move the shin forward instead. Then it['s a case
of keeping this muscle tensed all the time I'm skiing.

There's a number of other things which I have to work on e.g. keeping one
ski
slightly in front of the other (apparently affects the angles at your
waist),
and making sure that my inside ski keeps contact with the snow (another
bad
habit). I'm really struggling to learn on the dry slope though - it's
really
short - so am just trying to get everything in my mind right before I go
on the
holiday.


Hi, I agree with Bruce inasmuch as you appear to be over-analysing and not
"doing" or feeling. I disagree with Bruce about use of poles - I think they
are useful in helping one's balance if you use them properly. I am not so
sure about keeping muscles tensed - in my view there is no need to, and it
must be tiring!

Skiing is definitely a below-the-knee activity - good body position merely
enables the legs to do the job of edging the skis - too far forward and you
cramp your edging ability, too far back and you de-edge the skis and lose
balance. The goalkeeper-stance is all you need to work on - shoulders
forward and hands forward of your body (ie you should be able to see them in
your peripheral vision at all times) - flex forwards in your boots, and
imagine your backside is perched on a bar-stool. The ski-edging business
will happen in response to you actively moving your shins (positively,
against the boot tongue) forwards and relaxing them - shin / ankle forward
flexing is probably the key element in skiing. Good posture simply enables
your legs to work properly, and stops you falling over.

The biggest breakthrough in my skiing was in keeping a quiet upper body and
"going for the fall-line" ie looking downhill most of the time and letting
my shoulders follow my eyes. As for initiating turns I work on changing the
edge pressure just before I want to turn - on the steep stuff I also
emphasise un-weighting the working ski by thrusting my groin forwards and
slightly downhill as I begin to edge the new downhill ski.

But more than anything I concentrate on shins (and thus knees) forwards just
before and during the turn and feel the ski through the boot - I simply
adopt my goalkeeper stance and concentrate on letting the ski edges (both
of them!) do the work. When I start skiing like a biff it is usually because
I'm letting my upper body get in on the act, and more often than not my
hands are away doing their own thing thus upsetting my balance.

FWIW I think carving is nice but I don't let it dictate my skiing. I have a
low bottle-threshold and will skid and side-slip on stuff my kids will fly
down. In my view carving is just a tool in the bag I use to enjoy my day on
the mountain. I carve when I can, but if it is too steep or narrow for me
then I adopt appropriate techniques.

Roy