double-push skate by ski racers?

Inline skates follow an arc on the pavement especially when doing the double
push. That is, if one skates through a puddle the wheel track will be
curved.

XC skis are made to go in a straight line and get slow when they are turned
and weighted at the same time.

I believe any double-push with skate skis would have to avoid any turning of
the ski while weighted. I do not think the inline skate movements will
transfer directly.

Peter Berbee

"Ken Roberts" wrote in message
...
I just heard a report from a good source (but not a ski racer) that some
cross-country ski racers have been trying out double-push technique with
skis on snow. After they got good at it, they tried some time-trial
comparisons on snow and found some situations where double-push was faster
than normal ski-skating technique.

Anybody heard something like that?

Double-Push is one you make two pushes in a row with the same leg and same
ski, but in different directions: first one toward the inside, then the
other push toward the outside. My source said that in between the two
pushes, the racer would make a little hop into the air, and change the
angle
of the ski while it was up out of the snow. (I tried it myself a year or
so
on snow, but I couldn't make it work very effectively).

Double-Push is used by lots of expert speedskaters on inline skates. It's
much easier to perform on inlines because you don't have to hop up order
to
aim the skate in a different direction. Also on rollerskis, JanneG had a
video which showed double-push being done on rollerskis, with no hop
required.

What surprises me is not that some super-athletes could do double-push on
snow, but that it actually might be faster sometimes.

Ken

I just heard a report from a good source (but not a ski racer) that some
cross-country ski racers have been trying out double-push technique with
skis on snow. After they got good at it, they tried some time-trial
comparisons on snow and found some situations where double-push was faster
than normal ski-skating technique.

Anybody heard something like that?

Double-Push is one you make two pushes in a row with the same leg and same
ski, but in different directions: first one toward the inside, then the
other push toward the outside. My source said that in between the two
pushes, the racer would make a little hop into the air, and change the angle
of the ski while it was up out of the snow. (I tried it myself a year or so
on snow, but I couldn't make it work very effectively).

Double-Push is used by lots of expert speedskaters on inline skates. It's
much easier to perform on inlines because you don't have to hop up order to
aim the skate in a different direction. Also on rollerskis, JanneG had a
video which showed double-push being done on rollerskis, with no hop
required.

What surprises me is not that some super-athletes could do double-push on
snow, but that it actually might be faster sometimes.

Ken

It would seem to me that any benefit of a ski double push would be
negated by the time and effort required to change the direction of the
ski. With inlines you can change the direction continuously and with
very little effort, so the payoff there is clear. Do you know whether
it was V1, or no-pole? --- I assume V1 would be truly out of the
question because of the faster turnover required.

Jim

Many years ago I worked with a coach who used this type of stride as a
training exercise. I think the main purpose was to force skiers who did not
have a very good weight transfer to commit their weight to one side and then
the other. This forced them to commit their weight to the ski that was
doing the double glide phase on each side. It was sort of like doing two
sides of marathon skate on one side, then two strides on the other, etc.

I don't remember it being necessary to do any kind of a hop to re-align the
glide ski. It should have been pretty well unweighted during each push with
the push ski so it could be turned then.

I think it was only intended for weight transfer and co-ordination training
purposes, not for competition. It was fun for kids to play at on easy
downhills and could pick up quite a bit of speed on wide trails.

Scott

"Ken Roberts" wrote in message
...
I just heard a report from a good source (but not a ski racer) that some
cross-country ski racers have been trying out double-push technique with
skis on snow. After they got good at it, they tried some time-trial
comparisons on snow and found some situations where double-push was faster
than normal ski-skating technique.

Anybody heard something like that?

Double-Push is one you make two pushes in a row with the same leg and same
ski, but in different directions: first one toward the inside, then the
other push toward the outside. My source said that in between the two
pushes, the racer would make a little hop into the air, and change the
angle
of the ski while it was up out of the snow. (I tried it myself a year or
so
on snow, but I couldn't make it work very effectively).

Double-Push is used by lots of expert speedskaters on inline skates. It's
much easier to perform on inlines because you don't have to hop up order
to
aim the skate in a different direction. Also on rollerskis, JanneG had a
video which showed double-push being done on rollerskis, with no hop
required.

What surprises me is not that some super-athletes could do double-push on
snow, but that it actually might be faster sometimes.

Ken

Scott Elliot wrote:
Many years ago I worked with a coach who used this type of stride as a
training exercise. I think the main purpose was to force skiers who did not
have a very good weight transfer to commit their weight to one side and then
the other. This forced them to commit their weight to the ski that was
doing the double glide phase on each side. It was sort of like doing two
sides of marathon skate on one side, then two strides on the other, etc.

I don't remember it being necessary to do any kind of a hop to re-align the
glide ski. It should have been pretty well unweighted during each push with
the push ski so it could be turned then.

I think it was only intended for weight transfer and co-ordination training
purposes, not for competition. It was fun for kids to play at on easy
downhills and could pick up quite a bit of speed on wide trails.

I can't se that some is going to get something useful forward motion
from doing the "double push" on xc-skiis.
The only benefit would be the "pumping" effect on the muscles that
probobly makes the blod more easy passes through the muscles when doing
the "double push" motion but to the expence of the energyloss that are
involved in doing it (if any).

Janne G

Scott Elliot wrote
training exercise . . . I think the main purpose was to force
skiers who did not have a very good weight transfer to
commit their weight to one side and then the other.

Greater sideways weight-shift seems to be one of the two main propulsive
benefits to double-push technique when I look at videos of inline
speedskaters. The extra side-weight-shift from the initial "under-push" on
the outside edge then gets converted into greater force transmitted
propulsively to the ground in the next main push on the inside edge.

The other propulsive benefit is direct push aimed partly backward during the
under-push itself. (I can't see how the path of the skate being curved has
any propulsive benefit -- seems like just an incidental convenience for
skaters.) The odd thing I noticed in race videos is that many inline
speedskaters make the under-push even in configurations where it is
impossible to derive any significant direct-push benefit from it -- so I
figure they must be doing it for the side-weight-shift benefit.

I don't remember it being necessary to do any kind
of a hop to re-align the glide ski.

Maybe that's one of the secrets of making double-push effective on snow:
Finding the minimal amount of unweighting required and learning to feel and
control that. Seems likely that this is going to be easier on hard snow.

Ken

Jim Grau wrote
Do you know whether it was V1, or no-pole?

I'm not completely sure -- I sorta think he mentioned something about
working out coordination with poling. Anyway there was no doubt from the
discussion that they intended to use double-push in actual race situations
where poling would be expected.

I assume V1 would be truly out of the question
because of the faster turnover required.

Yes, now that you mention it, some sort of V2 poling sounds more plausible.

I'm just starting to see substantial gains (and fun) from using double-push
in my inline skating, so I'm eager to see what it would be like trying it on
snow. Unfortunately I'm not sure I have the athletic power to execute it on
snow more than a few seconds at a time, so it might be more frustrating than
fun for me.

Ken
_____________________________________
Jim Grau wrote
It would seem to me that any benefit of a ski double push would be
negated by the time and effort required to change the direction of the
ski. With inlines you can change the direction continuously and with
very little effort, so the payoff there is clear. Do you know whether
it was V1, or no-pole? --- I assume V1 would be truly out of the
question because of the faster turnover required.

Jim

Scott Elliot wrote:
Many years ago I worked with a coach who used this type of stride as a
training exercise. I think the main purpose was to force skiers who did not
have a very good weight transfer to commit their weight to one side and then
the other. This forced them to commit their weight to the ski that was
doing the double glide phase on each side. It was sort of like doing two
sides of marathon skate on one side, then two strides on the other, etc.

I don't remember it being necessary to do any kind of a hop to re-align the
glide ski. It should have been pretty well unweighted during each push with
the push ski so it could be turned then.

I think it was only intended for weight transfer and co-ordination training
purposes, not for competition. It was fun for kids to play at on easy
downhills and could pick up quite a bit of speed on wide trails.

I can't se that some is going to get something useful forward motion
from doing the "double push" on xc-skiis.
The only benefit would be the "pumping" effect on the muscles that
probobly makes the blod more easy passes through the muscles when doing
the "double push" motion but to the expence of the energyloss that are
involved in doing it (if any).

Janne G

This might be an interesting way to experiment with double push on roller
skis:

V2 pole and use only one leg.

There was a time I would have had the strength, coordination and courage to
give it a try. Not now.

Gary Jacobson
Rosendale, NY

"janne g" uth._remove.se
wrote in message ...

I can't se that some is going to get something useful forward motion from
doing the "double push" on xc-skiis.
The only benefit would be the "pumping" effect on the muscles that
probobly makes the blod more easy passes through the muscles when doing
the "double push" motion but to the expence of the energyloss that are
involved in doing it (if any).

Janne G

I don't think it was ever intended to be effective for forward motion. It
was used as a teaching tool only. In Canada we have many people who take up
cross country skiing after playing hockey for many years. When they try to
skate their first tendency is to do a hockey skate where they are always on
the edges of their skates or skis. This does not result in satisfactory
glide to be efficient for skiing. This exercise is intended to force them
to commit more weight to the glide ski so that they will get the balance and
feel of a gliding ski. If you want to do two glide phases on one side you
are forced to get your centre of gravity over the glide ski.

In any case, I have only seen one or two coaches use this technique. I just
noted that young skiers had fun playing with it and it did help the "hockey
skaters" improve their glide.

Scott