Okay to ask basic questions?

lal_truckee wrote:

Lisa Horton wrote:

In the Lito book, he mentions Harb and expresses gratitude, but he says
his goal is to get people out of the intermediate level, expressly
trying to help people not get stuck there. That's what he says anyway.

And he's absolutely correct - the techniques in his book work and can
provide that "breakthrough" where it all suddenly makes sense. Before
you know it we'll have you hiking out to Munchkin Chute with the rest of
us, looking for steep untracked...

Hiking? HIKING? Sounds suspiciously like Nordic to me. I'm fine with
skiing downhill, but skiing uphill, or even walking very far uphill is
too much like real exercise for me


Check out Lito's discussions on his website, if you haven't seen them:
(rummage around the site for more) http://makeashorterlink.com/?D17024718

I'm sorry, I never do shorterlink or tinyurl types of links. If that's
the Breakthrough on Skis site, I've read a good part of the
instructional section already, more as I'm ready to understand it. I've
done a LOT of research in the two weeks since I started this Yup,
just two weeks, 4 ski days.

Lisa

Lisa Horton wrote:

In the Lito book, he mentions Harb and expresses gratitude, but he says
his goal is to get people out of the intermediate level, expressly
trying to help people not get stuck there. That's what he says anyway.

And he's absolutely correct - the techniques in his book work and can
provide that "breakthrough" where it all suddenly makes sense. Before
you know it we'll have you hiking out to Munchkin Chute with the rest of
us, looking for steep untracked...

Check out Lito's discussions on his website, if you haven't seen them:
(rummage around the site for more) http://makeashorterlink.com/?D17024718

In article ,
Lisa Horton wrote:

lal_truckee wrote:

Lisa Horton wrote:

In the Lito book, he mentions Harb and expresses gratitude, but he says
his goal is to get people out of the intermediate level, expressly
trying to help people not get stuck there. That's what he says anyway.

And he's absolutely correct - the techniques in his book work and can
provide that "breakthrough" where it all suddenly makes sense. Before
you know it we'll have you hiking out to Munchkin Chute with the rest of
us, looking for steep untracked...

Hiking? HIKING? Sounds suspiciously like Nordic to me. I'm fine with
skiing downhill, but skiing uphill, or even walking very far uphill is
too much like real exercise for me


Check out Lito's discussions on his website, if you haven't seen them:
(rummage around the site for more) http://makeashorterlink.com/?D17024718

I'm sorry, I never do shorterlink or tinyurl types of links. If that's

May I ask why?

the Breakthrough on Skis site, I've read a good part of the
instructional section already, more as I'm ready to understand it. I've
done a LOT of research in the two weeks since I started this Yup,
just two weeks, 4 ski days.

Lisa

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect
if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

Lisa Horton wrote:
I want to get to at least mid level intermediate, better if I can. I'm
generally pretty good at balance/movement activities, so I don't see any
barrier to getting pretty good at this.

I'd guess you had pretty good SAT scores, too.


After all, the mantra of skiing, the goal of all the effort, the glory
and the reward is:
Toutes les neige, tous les terrains, tout le vitesse.


Sounds good, especially tout le vitesse

Don't forget.. "If you're having fun, you're doing it right. And even
sometimes.. when you're not having fun."

-klaus

Lisa Horton wrote:
lal_truckee wrote:

And he's absolutely correct - the techniques in his book work and can
provide that "breakthrough" where it all suddenly makes sense. Before
you know it we'll have you hiking out to Munchkin Chute with the rest of
us, looking for steep untracked...

Hiking? HIKING? Sounds suspiciously like Nordic to me. I'm fine with
skiing downhill, but skiing uphill, or even walking very far uphill is
too much like real exercise for me

Ouch.

Another fantasy shattered.

-klaus

Lisa Horton wrote:


lal_truckee wrote:

Lisa Horton wrote:


In the Lito book, he mentions Harb and expresses gratitude, but he says
his goal is to get people out of the intermediate level, expressly
trying to help people not get stuck there. That's what he says anyway.

And he's absolutely correct - the techniques in his book work and can
provide that "breakthrough" where it all suddenly makes sense. Before
you know it we'll have you hiking out to Munchkin Chute with the rest of
us, looking for steep untracked...


Hiking? HIKING? Sounds suspiciously like Nordic to me. I'm fine with
skiing downhill, but skiing uphill, or even walking very far uphill is
too much like real exercise for me

Once you get your skills built up, Alpine Meadows is all about getting
fresh lines in the off piste by short walks along the ridge lines.
Munchkin may be a bit much grin, but some of the High Traverse is
skiable by intermediates if you pick your days, for instance.

Check out Lito's discussions on his website, if you haven't seen them:
(rummage around the site for more) http://makeashorterlink.com/?D17024718


I'm sorry, I never do shorterlink or tinyurl types of links.

Why? Anyway:
http://www.breakthroughonskis.com/Pages/%20ski_instruction/instruction05.html
Featuring Lito AND Harb.

If that's
the Breakthrough on Skis site, I've read a good part of the
instructional section already, more as I'm ready to understand it. I've
done a LOT of research in the two weeks since I started this Yup,
just two weeks, 4 ski days.

Two more days this weekend?

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 10:01:40 -0700, lal_truckee
wrote:

Well, I for one haven't brought up skiing technique or instruction
methods even though I too noticed the "stance foot"/"tail slide"
comments because I wanted to avoid involving her in the ongoing hissy
fit PSIA has whenever someone disagrees with the official word.

As far as I can tell, the only reason PSIA types get so worked up
about HH is that he always seems to come back to denigrating comments
on PSIA and everything that has gone before him in order to create a
niche for his own gig. If he would cool down the iconoclast attitude,
he would be received much better by his colleagues. He might even
recruit a few more instructors to his side.

But given the insipid comments in the rest of your post

[insipid mode=OFF]

Sorry. Let me fix that right now. IMO, you are an old fart
iconoclast yourself. For example, you persist in advocating long
narrow skis with no one in the pro skiing community but Plake on your
side. You have no credibility because every pro whether teaching,
racing, big mtn skiing, bumps or park&pipe has gone to shorter boards
generally, and fatter boards for soft snow. Your views are
superannuated, outmoded, obsolete. Why then should we believe your
views on HH?

Besides, you don't even condemn terrierists when asked to do so.

[insipid mode=ON]

BTW, which mode do you prefer?

I suppose it's important that newbies like Lisa know that there are
alternate schools of thought aoout learning to ski.

I think we agree on that.

PSIA is one such school.

Can you name another in the US with more than a dozen instructors?

If you introduce Canada into the equation, realize that their current
instruction methodology is almost indistinguishable from PSIA.


For unknown reasons PSIA seems to have become
much more rigid in its thinking in the last decade or so. Formerly - say
15+ years ago - PSIA stressed that everyone learned differently and the
instructor's task was to discover how a student learned and adapt the
teaching to the student; I've got PSIA publications to support this
claim. These days they seem much more convinced they know the "One True
Way." Shades of Hannes Schneider (look him up.)

Sorry, but these comments show you simply are waaaay out of touch in
this area. I don't know when you left PSIA, but there is a whole book
called "Core Concepts" put out by PSIA on such issues. Knowledge of
this is stressed and tested at PSIA certification exams, and the guest
centered teaching of PSIA is even touted in numerous ski area
advertisements.

For example, I think there is a bunch of current PSIA GCT material on:
http://www.psia-rm.org/disc_alpine.htm

Anyway, back to "stance foot" and Harb and Lito and PSIA:
I'll say four things.
One, whatever works for you is best for you, and only you can define the
level of skiing you wish to attain.

I guess that's kinda like saying, I swim using a dog paddle stroke
because it works, so it must be "best for me". Most newbies need to
be exposed to non-obvious, non-intuitive techniques of advanced
skiing.

Two, watch the best skiers on the off-piste, steep, deep, bumps, etc.;
they will be continuously adapting their style to the immediate
conditions; sometimes "stance foot" sometimes two foot sometimes
airborne sometimes with constant surface contact, but always dynamic.

You won't get any argument from me on this. If you think that the
official PSIA policy is anything different, you are mistaken. Amidst
the 20k+ members, you certainly might have run into individuals that
are members of PSIA that might simplistically say that all skiing
should be two-footed carving, but they are not representative of
PSIA's true intent.

Three, stance foot doesn't hinder carving - it accentuates carving.
Comments counter that basic observation are so off base as to imply
never personally watching high-level skiing.

Carving at the highest levels of skiing always will be biased towards
one foot because of the centrifugal force of the high-G, fast turns,
so this is not an argument against two footed turns at more normal
speeds.

The problems with your statement have been gone over with a fine tooth
comb in other forums. This discussion is too long to repeat or even
summarize here. If you insist, I'll find some links that people can
read and decide for themselves.

Four, only wusses think high level skiing is two footed carved turns on
the runout groomer right under the lift, leaving railroad tracks .

PSIA would agree. I just assisted at a L-II exam where if the
candidate couldn't do 2 footed carving on a steep black, they flunked.

They need to test themselve more
against constantly varying, difficult, conditions on the rest of the
mountain.

This is a strawman argument. No one said that PSIA expects or wants
anything different. Try skidding your turns when scraped off icy
areas are interspersed with areas of grabby heavy snow. If you aren't
carving, you'll be pitched sideways.

And a final comment - when the off piste conditions are difficult -
crusty, or slushy, or mashed potatos, etc., where are all these off-duty
PSIA level 3s young whippersnappers who should be leading the way? Why
do they wait for an old fart to ski the conditions first and show them
it's OK to get out there?

I don't believe you. Where I come from its the L3's, DCL's, and
examiners that are having the most fun of anyone in this sort of
stuff.

If you are so sure of your opinions, why don't you try making the same
arguments and claims over on Epic instead of here on Usenet, the
looney-town, wild west part of the Internet? There are a lot of
mature individuals like yourself over there and I have never seen a
solid argument flamed or otherwise put down.

Alan Baker wrote:

In article ,
Lisa Horton wrote:

lal_truckee wrote:

Check out Lito's discussions on his website, if you haven't seen them:
(rummage around the site for more) http://makeashorterlink.com/?D17024718

I'm sorry, I never do shorterlink or tinyurl types of links. If that's

May I ask why?


Too many times I've seen (not directly mind you) them used for nefarious
purposes, like sending people to pornographic sites or sites with
malicious intent. If I just don't click any of them, I hopefully don't
offend people, or offend people less.

Lisa

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 10:26:22 -0700, Lisa Horton
wrote:

Actually, the book "Breakthrough on the new skis", but I started off
with a private lesson from a PSIA member. Although I don't think she
used the term stance foot, she did talk about putting weight on the
outside foot in a turn.

Ah. There is nothing wrong with putting weight on the outside foot.
That wasn't the issue. How much and when can be the subject of a lot
of thought and discussion, but it was your use of the very specific
phrase, "stance foot" that clued me in to your skiing background.

I did manage to get to a point of carving a few, but my primary goal is
enough control that I can feel safe and enjoy myself.

Excellent! In many situations you often have much more control
carving instead of constantly having your skis moving even a few
degrees sideways to the snow. For an example, see my comment to Lal
about a situation where there are patches of ice interspersed with
patches of grabby snow. If you don't carve through these (ie, if you
are going sideways to any extent), you are in for a very rough ride.

In the Lito book, he mentions Harb and expresses gratitude, but he says
his goal is to get people out of the intermediate level, expressly
trying to help people not get stuck there. That's what he says anyway.

IMHO, Lito is about halfway between HH and PSIA on dogma, and much
nicer than HH in attitude. He's a good guy, and if you took a lesson
from him, you wouldn't have to worry about him teaching you dead-end
moves. OTOH, his books tend to be vast oversimplifications of what
you need and would get in person.

The instructor showed me how to skid the turns, but when I watched
people on the high slopes from the lift chair, or watched skiing video
on the web, I didn't see a lot of skidded turns. So my goal is to have
the skidded turn as an option, but try to do the carved turn and benefit
from the new design skis. So I'm not sure what camp that points me
towards

Contrary to what Lal said, PSIA would say exactly the same thing.
Carve when its the most appropriate technique and skid when its the
best thing to do. If you are lurking around on Epic, do a search
for the phrase, "Ski the slow line fast". Note the restriction, "when
appropriate" at the end of it.

Would you include the Lito book "Breakthrough On The New Skis" in the
Harb camp then?

see above.


This SOUNDS like what the Lito book is teaching, but he doesn't seem to
have a high opinion of most ski instructors.

Humm. I don't have all of his books, so I hadn't picked up on this.
My first reaction is that its probably an attempt like HH to create a
niche for himself - "product differentiation" if you would, where the
"product" is instruction.

http://www.epicski.com/cgi-bin/ultim...?ubb=get_daily

Well, your alignment was obvious, if not the reason. I will check out
the discussion though.

It's a great place. 5000+ members, many of whom are very senior
instructors, heads of ski schools, and other pros. I think you will
like it and be welcomed.

The email address I use here is a throwaway one, and I use extensive and
multi level filtering on that account. I've seen the trolls here, and
I've seen worse on other groups. Good to see new participants being
warned though, not enough of that around Usenet.

Great! I've seen a lot of people walk blindly into the minefield that
this place usually is.

On this subject, as a result of some previous troll activities, I did
some research into trolling. The anonymous remailers and mail to news
gateways are what enable the trolls to pursue their goals free from
consequences. Now, these tools do have a legitimate use, as many people
in the world live in countries where they are not free to express their
views. The problem with these tools is that the people who operate them
are unwilling to do even the smallest thing to fix the problems that
they enable. For example, when faced with the reasonable idea of
disallowing anonymous cross-posting, which has NO legitimate uses, they
adamantly refused to even consider the idea. Thus, unless something
changes, Usenet as we know it is on a slow (so far) and inexorable slide
into chaos and unusability. Enjoy it while it lasts, because we're at
the beginning of the end.

Good analysis, but as you have undoubtedly seen, even one person can
totally disrupt a an otherwise well-intentioned group without using
remailers. On the internet, you can find youself inadvertently
conversing with someone who you would flee from in real life, so I am
a firm believer in the use of screen names, with real world info given
ONLY after months, if not years of establishment of the personality
and intent of the individual.

Cheers & many good turns in your future skiing career!

lal_truckee wrote:

Lisa Horton wrote:



I've
done a LOT of research in the two weeks since I started this Yup,
just two weeks, 4 ski days.

Two more days this weekend?

I wish! I'm going to try for a little longer mid week trip in the next
few weeks, at least. Weekend hotel rates in Reno are sucking my budget
dry

And if I can get in 4 more ski days this season, I'll be over halfway to
paying for the ski gear

Lisa