St Anton - 'High Alpine Touring Runs'

In the St Anton area there are a number of 'High Alpine Touring Runs' marked
with a black chain (dash dot) on the ski map.

Some examples are the runs down from the Albonagrat at Stuben and the
Riffelscharte at Rendl


In a world of mobile phones and GPSs could more be done to make these routes
accessible to those without 'authorised guides'?

It would be nice if these routes were upgraded to the status of Ski Routes by
marking them with posts. Has anyone published GPS tracks or waypoint lists?

(On piste skiing so often reminds me of the M25 or walking down Oxford street.
You spend most of your effort avoiding other people.)

--

Michael Chare

You dont need 'authorised guides' to ski these routes what makes you think
that ?

"Michael Chare" wrote in message
...
In the St Anton area there are a number of 'High Alpine Touring Runs'
marked
with a black chain (dash dot) on the ski map.

Some examples are the runs down from the Albonagrat at Stuben and the
Riffelscharte at Rendl


In a world of mobile phones and GPSs could more be done to make these
routes
accessible to those without 'authorised guides'?

It would be nice if these routes were upgraded to the status of Ski Routes
by
marking them with posts. Has anyone published GPS tracks or waypoint
lists?

(On piste skiing so often reminds me of the M25 or walking down Oxford
street.
You spend most of your effort avoiding other people.)

--

Michael Chare

"Nigel" wrote in message
...
You dont need 'authorised guides' to ski these routes what makes you think
that ?

To quote from the St Anton ski map ".... and are only recommended when
accompanied by an authorised guide''

What I would like is for it to be easier to use these routes.

--

Michael Chare

Michael Chare wrote:
"Nigel" wrote in message
...

You dont need 'authorised guides' to ski these routes what makes you think
that ?


To quote from the St Anton ski map ".... and are only recommended when
accompanied by an authorised guide''

What I would like is for it to be easier to use these routes.


The issue isn't navigation, so long as you are not doing them in a white
out you could easily find your way. The reason for the recommendation of
guides is the avalanche risk (and I guess other risks such falling over
and getting hurt) - the runs are not patrolled and are not subject to
avalanche control. That said I don't know anyone who has hired a guide
to do these runs, they get tracked out in seconds after snow fall - if
you hire a guide they can propbably find you some better stuff that
isn't on the map at all.

Hi Michael


In a world of mobile phones and GPSs could more be done to make these routes
accessible to those without 'authorised guides'?

It would be nice if these routes were upgraded to the status of Ski Routes by
marking them with posts. Has anyone published GPS tracks or waypoint lists?
This is high alpine area. You should have deep alpine mountaineering
experience if you go there. If you have this experience, you would not
have to ask here; if you don't have it, you should go with someone, who
can stand in with his experience.

I always compare it with sailing to the sea; you can rent a nutshell in
any harbour; and there are people, who are able to cross the ocean in
such a nutshell. But would it come to your mind to do this as complete
landlubber?

Florian

"Steve Haigh" wrote in message
...
Michael Chare wrote:
"Nigel" wrote in message
...

The issue isn't navigation, so long as you are not doing them in a white
out you could easily find your way. The reason for the recommendation of
guides is the avalanche risk


Well perhaps they could do more to advise when avalanche risk is low, as well as
marking the pistes for the likes of me who would not know which set of tracks to
follow! I find that you can get in enough trouble just walking in the Alps in
the summer!

In March this year I counted four avalanches across marked pistes in St Anton &
Zurs. (I am not suggesting that the pistes were open when the avalanches
occured. In one case I saw a mother a young child follow the piste when it was
closed prior to the avalanche.)


(and I guess other risks such falling over
and getting hurt) - the runs are not patrolled and are not subject to
avalanche control. That said I don't know anyone who has hired a guide
to do these runs, they get tracked out in seconds after snow fall - if
you hire a guide they can propbably find you some better stuff that
isn't on the map at all.

From the snippets of conversation that I overheard from one group that set off
down one of these routes I did wonder if they really knew what they were doing!


--

Michael Chare

If these route were to become in the confinds of the resort ie;patrolled &
controlled for avalanche the price of the lift ticket would rocket !

Avalanche asseemnet is not an aexact science far from it. It may well be
"low" in the confides of the resort but be high outside .

You may well recall at the beginining of the season ( I was there) around
the 18th Dec. The avalnche risk was low the snow depth was minimal but 2
Americans decided to ski just 20 metres of the side of a piste in Lech and
were killed in by an avalanche.

One of the other posts here says "if you need to ask these questions you
shouldnt go on these high alpine routes".




"Steve Haigh" wrote in message
...
Michael Chare wrote:
"Nigel" wrote in message
...

You dont need 'authorised guides' to ski these routes what makes you
think
that ?


To quote from the St Anton ski map ".... and are only recommended when
accompanied by an authorised guide''

What I would like is for it to be easier to use these routes.


The issue isn't navigation, so long as you are not doing them in a white
out you could easily find your way. The reason for the recommendation of
guides is the avalanche risk (and I guess other risks such falling over
and getting hurt) - the runs are not patrolled and are not subject to
avalanche control. That said I don't know anyone who has hired a guide
to do these runs, they get tracked out in seconds after snow fall - if
you hire a guide they can propbably find you some better stuff that
isn't on the map at all.

"Nigel" wrote in message
...
If these route were to become in the confinds of the resort ie;patrolled &
controlled for avalanche the price of the lift ticket would rocket !

The fact that the routes are marked on the map would suggest that there are
times when they are safe, or at least reasonably safe.

It would be nice if the resort published more information.


Avalanche asseemnet is not an aexact science far from it. It may well be
"low" in the confides of the resort but be high outside .

As I said, this year in March I saw several avalanches in the resort. l agree it
is not an exact science.


You may well recall at the beginining of the season ( I was there) around
the 18th Dec. The avalnche risk was low the snow depth was minimal but 2
Americans decided to ski just 20 metres of the side of a piste in Lech and
were killed in by an avalanche.

No, I missed that one. Where abouts were they? 20m does not sound far from the
piste.


One of the other posts here says "if you need to ask these questions you
shouldnt go on these high alpine routes".

To which I would say that there is much that can be learnt from other people's
experience.

When doing something hazardous, you can often you can reduce your risk by
following some simple rules.

--

Michael Chare

Michael Chare wrote:
"Nigel" wrote in message
...

If these route were to become in the confinds of the resort ie;patrolled &
controlled for avalanche the price of the lift ticket would rocket !


The fact that the routes are marked on the map would suggest that there are
times when they are safe, or at least reasonably safe.

If you ask the piste patrol I am sure they would be happy to give you
their opinion and advice about these routes and the current conditions.

I don't know St Anton but I suspect that an avalanche bulletin is
published and flags are flown to show the general risk; again the piste
patrol can give you this information. In nearby Davos access to the
"black dotted" runs is blocked by a rope when the piste patrol think
they are too dangerous (although you can ski them anyway if you wish).

As others here have suggested if you don't yet have the basic
information about snow safety and route finding at your disposal you
maybe have a little way to go before skiing these runs on your own with
good safety. The resort already have a huge number of runs which are
well marked and patrolled and safe from avalanche hazard.

With respect why don't you either go out with an off-piste group or get
together with some like minded inviduals and hire a guide for a day with
the idea of showing you these runs and discussing the risks?