Wisconsin theory of skating (was forward-step move in skating)

glide. But soon,
with practice, this high tempo style began to feel
more like "falling
uphill." We worked on keeping the hips forward,
skating with more of a
side to side motion (rather than kicking back as I
do on the steeps) and
being light on our feet. The key is to keep your
skis gliding through
the push phase, too. The dead ski is the momentum
killer. It really

Didn't I explain all this last winter in this
newsgroup? This demonstrates that everyone needs a
coach to show them this and get them to FEEL it.
Reading the internet and teaching yourself doesn't
work.

Rob Bradlee


=====
Rob Bradlee
Java, C++, Perl, XML, OOAD, Linux, and Unix Training

Rob -

Are you trying to take the fun out this?

If we all could see the right answer right away -- and use the same words
for it -- then after about 15 months we'd all be skiing the same way -- and
there would nothing else to ever learn again. But that's not the real
problem . . .

After 15 months there would nothing left to argue about.

Except doping and waxing.

Ken

Rob Bradlee wrote:



Didn't I explain all this last winter in this
newsgroup? This demonstrates that everyone needs a
coach to show them this and get them to FEEL it.
Reading the internet and teaching yourself doesn't
work.

Yes and more! Because I have had many volunteered hints in person that
just didn't not click with me. No improvement noted, but still strove
to do what I was told. The hints were correct, but the path to
execution remained hidden from me. A competent coach knows the symtoms
and the solutions, but also knows the words and drills to get the habits
altered.

Jim,

Welcome to the "new skate". Make sure you continue working on getting a
big push off of those legs, even with the increased tempo. Begin pushing
off those legs as soon as they touch the ground and keep pushing throughout
the entire stroke. It takes a while to build the necessary strength, but
when you pull everything together, those locals will have to watch out for
you uphill....

-Nathan
http://nsavage.com

"Jim Farrell" wrote in message
...
Ken Roberts wrote:
Philip Nelson wrote

One of the things that got me started on all of this
was because so many coaches had such different
things to say, and they seemed to work well for some skiers.


That's also what got me thinking about the physics of ski skating.
Turned
out to be much more complicated (and interesting) than I expected.

I haven't really been following this thread, but last week I had a
technique epiphany. Andy Turnbull returned from a summer coaching camp
in Colo. with a great hill climbing workout suggested by one of the US
team coaches. I always have felt my V1 needed a lot of work. I kill
myself on climbs and can beat locals on flat courses who beat me in
hillier terrain. I have recieved some hints that haven't really
clicked, but mostly I thought the fault was with my upper body, lack of
crunch and poor 'forward fall.'

Instead, massive improvements in one session resulted from changing the
skate motion. We practiced with no poles a short stroke quick turn over
technique that at first seemed like not skating at all, violating the
principles of 'getting over the ski' and riding the glide. But soon,
with practice, this high tempo style began to feel more like "falling
uphill." We worked on keeping the hips forward, skating with more of a
side to side motion (rather than kicking back as I do on the steeps) and
being light on our feet. The key is to keep your skis gliding through
the push phase, too. The dead ski is the momentum killer. It really
felt like another 'gear' for me. Now maybe i was getting the tempo
change a little better than some of my work out mates, but it really
seemed that i climbed the hills faster and with much less effort.

Jim

PS: thanks to the US ski team for sharing these insights with coaches
from around the country! The illustratiion given is that some skiers
are upper body dominant (I think an Italian was given as an example,
great skier, on the WC podium, but doesn't/(didn't) appear to get as
much out of his legs as say, Carl Swensen does.) So we were working on
getting more out of the legs (why not, you gotta stand on them anyway!)

--- Ken Roberts

Are you trying to take the fun out this?

Of course not!

If we all could see the right answer right away --
and use the same words
for it -- then after about 15 months we'd all be
skiing the same way -- and
there would nothing else to ever learn again. But
that's not the real
problem . . .

The wonderful thing about xc skiing is that you can
keep working on technique forever. It's like a golf
swing - Tiger still takes lessons with his coach.

After 15 months there would nothing left to argue
about.

No, we'd just be arguing at a higher level.

Except doping and waxing.

Well, those could take up LOTS of time.

Rob


=====
Rob Bradlee
Java, C++, Perl, XML, OOAD, Linux, and Unix Training

I didn't make clear that the context of Dale's comment was a discussion
about the clinics he used to do in the Twin Cites, i.e., what was taught
then and now. Entirely apart from that, if Alsgaard was doing this in 1994
then I wonder about its relationship to what was marketed several years
later (6?) as the "new skate." In fact, the coach of one of the "new
skaters" commented publicly last year that there's been nothing
substantially new in skating technique in 10 years except changes in
instructional marketing (he made a comparison to toothpaste marketing).
Time to get back to rollerskiing.

Gene

Nathan Schultz wrote:

That is hilarious. Dale Niggeman credited with the "new skate". You do
not know how happy that makes me. I am laughing hysterically. That is
perhaps the funniest thing I have heard in a long time.

Thomas Alsgaard was doing this in 1994. By Dale's own admission on his
web site, he figured it out by watching World Cup skiers. There aren't any
dates on his web site, but from looking around, it looks like he wrote all
of it around 1999, several years after several people in the US were trying
to spread the word about this "new" technique meeting huge resistance,
mostly from the recreational racing community.

-Nathan
http://nsavage.com

"Gene Goldenfeld" wrote in message
...
Dale Niggeman of PlanetX/Enduro rollerskis and a top level Birkie finisher
was in the Twin Cities a couple of weekends ago demonstrating his new
dryland CAT Ski. Some years ago he wrote a few skating articles for his
website, the central feature of which is that pushing the foot to the side
and a little foward on the skate-off is key to using the legs properly in
skating. The ability to do that is also how he evaluates the level of
participants at his rollerski clinics. During his visit we got to talking
about those articles and he mentioned a bit bitterly how this notion of
his
is now accepted fare, without appropriate credit being given. I don't know
the history of all this, but for his step-by-step discussion see
http://www.tznet.com/enduro/Legs.html

Gene


Jim Farrell wrote:

side to side motion (rather than kicking back as I do on the steeps) and
being light on our feet. The key is to keep your skis gliding through
the push phase, too. The dead ski is the momentum killer. It really
felt like another 'gear' for me. Now maybe i was getting the tempo
change a little better than some of my work out mates, but it really
seemed that i climbed the hills faster and with much less effort.

Jim

PS: thanks to the US ski team for sharing these insights with coaches
from around the country! The illustratiion given is that some skiers
are upper body dominant (I think an Italian was given as an example,
great skier, on the WC podium, but doesn't/(didn't) appear to get as
much out of his legs as say, Carl Swensen does.) So we were working on
getting more out of the legs (why not, you gotta stand on them anyway!)

Rob, yes you did say that, and quite well.

One of the most interesting things I noted from attending the Coaching
Symposium that started this thread was that there are a lot coaches out
there who do not have a very good handle on technique. Probably 10-20% of
the coaches there knew and could understand high-level technique
discussions, 40% had a grasp of intermediate technique principles, and the
remainder had little concept of even basic concepts. When we went
rollerskiing, a large part of the group looked like an advanced beginner
lesson at a local ski area. I don't believe that a coach needs to have
perfect technique (if there is such a thing), but knowing the fundamentals
and being able to explain and demonstrate high-level techniques seems a bare
minimum.

Trond and Pete did a great job integrating everyone and disseminating a
lot of knowledge, from basic to advanced. Obviously it has already had an
effect, as Jim's experience shows. Yes, it is true that not everyone agrees
on every point of technique and training, but what I learned from the
weekend was that we (as a country) need to place much more importance on
coaches' education and make information accessible to coaches, clubs and
skiers around the country. We're not necessarily going to agree about
everything, but at least we can develop a framework for basic coaching
skills, which is not currently in place.

Ken's thread about disagreement being fun seems to me to miss Rob's
point. I know we all have different goals and motivations for being XC ski
nerds, but I (and I think Rob) see the big picture of becoming better skiers
as the key to enjoying the sport. That is why I am coaching and racing; I
find all of this stuff relevant because I can become a better skier and help
others become better skiers than me. While we need to go into this with an
open mind and critically evaluate all the information out there, I think a
lot of people lose the focus on what really matters. If you want to become
a better skier, listen to what people say, evaluate it critically (not
automatically discounting it), try it out for yourself, ask questions. At
this point either accept it as valid or accept that it doesn't work for you.
Rob's frustration is not due to him "trying to take the fun out of it", but
being tired of watching people wasting time arguing about things that become
self-evident with a little coaching. For these things, there comes a point
when we all need to just shut up and go outside to try it out for ourselves.

-Nathan
http://nsavage.com

"Rob Bradlee" wrote in message
o.com...

glide. But soon,
with practice, this high tempo style began to feel
more like "falling
uphill." We worked on keeping the hips forward,
skating with more of a
side to side motion (rather than kicking back as I
do on the steeps) and
being light on our feet. The key is to keep your
skis gliding through
the push phase, too. The dead ski is the momentum
killer. It really

Didn't I explain all this last winter in this
newsgroup? This demonstrates that everyone needs a
coach to show them this and get them to FEEL it.
Reading the internet and teaching yourself doesn't
work.

Rob Bradlee


=====
Rob Bradlee
Java, C++, Perl, XML, OOAD, Linux, and Unix Training

Gene,

I agree with you that it is a dumb name. I've always called it the "new
skate" but immediately explained that it is not really new. Unfortunately,
due to lack of better nomenclature, people understand what "new skate"
describes, but not what the "push with your legs, lean forward at the
ankles" skate is. That's why I generally use quotation marks around "new
skate".

You would be surprised at how many people out there are still skating
old school. It is still very new as far as most of the ski community is
concerned, although it is finally starting to sink in and be a generally
accepted idea.

-Nathan

"Gene Goldenfeld" wrote in message
...
I didn't make clear that the context of Dale's comment was a discussion
about the clinics he used to do in the Twin Cites, i.e., what was taught
then and now. Entirely apart from that, if Alsgaard was doing this in
1994
then I wonder about its relationship to what was marketed several years
later (6?) as the "new skate." In fact, the coach of one of the "new
skaters" commented publicly last year that there's been nothing
substantially new in skating technique in 10 years except changes in
instructional marketing (he made a comparison to toothpaste marketing).
Time to get back to rollerskiing.

Gene

Nathan Schultz wrote:

That is hilarious. Dale Niggeman credited with the "new skate".
You do
not know how happy that makes me. I am laughing hysterically. That is
perhaps the funniest thing I have heard in a long time.

Thomas Alsgaard was doing this in 1994. By Dale's own admission on
his
web site, he figured it out by watching World Cup skiers. There aren't
any
dates on his web site, but from looking around, it looks like he wrote
all
of it around 1999, several years after several people in the US were
trying
to spread the word about this "new" technique meeting huge resistance,
mostly from the recreational racing community.

-Nathan
http://nsavage.com

"Gene Goldenfeld" wrote in message
...
Dale Niggeman of PlanetX/Enduro rollerskis and a top level Birkie
finisher
was in the Twin Cities a couple of weekends ago demonstrating his new
dryland CAT Ski. Some years ago he wrote a few skating articles for
his
website, the central feature of which is that pushing the foot to the
side
and a little foward on the skate-off is key to using the legs properly
in
skating. The ability to do that is also how he evaluates the level of
participants at his rollerski clinics. During his visit we got to
talking
about those articles and he mentioned a bit bitterly how this notion
of
his
is now accepted fare, without appropriate credit being given. I don't
know
the history of all this, but for his step-by-step discussion see
http://www.tznet.com/enduro/Legs.html

Gene


Jim Farrell wrote:

side to side motion (rather than kicking back as I do on the steeps)
and
being light on our feet. The key is to keep your skis gliding
through
the push phase, too. The dead ski is the momentum killer. It
really
felt like another 'gear' for me. Now maybe i was getting the tempo
change a little better than some of my work out mates, but it really
seemed that i climbed the hills faster and with much less effort.

Jim

PS: thanks to the US ski team for sharing these insights with
coaches
from around the country! The illustratiion given is that some
skiers
are upper body dominant (I think an Italian was given as an example,
great skier, on the WC podium, but doesn't/(didn't) appear to get as
much out of his legs as say, Carl Swensen does.) So we were working
on
getting more out of the legs (why not, you gotta stand on them
anyway!)

--- Nathan Schultz wrote:
Rob, yes you did say that, and quite well.

One of the most interesting things I noted from
attending the Coaching
Symposium that started this thread was that there
are a lot coaches out
there who do not have a very good handle on
technique. Probably 10-20% of

This is true in my experience too. Here in NE we have
been working at NENSA to have coaches clinics and a
certification program. It seems to be working. Zach
Caldwell noted when doing skate progressions at the
recent Stratton Junior camp that most kids were doing
the basics pretty well. That was NOT true a few years
ago. It does seem that more coaches are getting the
word, but there is much more work to be done.

Ken's thread about disagreement being fun seems
to me to miss Rob's
point. I know we all have different goals and
motivations for being XC ski
nerds, but I (and I think Rob) see the big picture
of becoming better skiers
as the key to enjoying the sport. That is why I am
coaching and racing; I
find all of this stuff relevant because I can become
a better skier and help
others become better skiers than me. While we need
to go into this with an
open mind and critically evaluate all the
information out there, I think a
lot of people lose the focus on what really matters.

Exactly!

If you want to become
a better skier, listen to what people say, evaluate
it critically (not
automatically discounting it), try it out for
yourself, ask questions. At
this point either accept it as valid or accept that
it doesn't work for you.
Rob's frustration is not due to him "trying to take
the fun out of it", but
being tired of watching people wasting time arguing
about things that become
self-evident with a little coaching. For these

You have understood me completely. This newsgroup has
long discussions about things that would made moot by
five minutes of live coaching. Here's a story to
illustrate the point: In the Civil Wra the Union
generals were sitting on their horses at the edge of a
river discussing how deep they thought it would be.
Finally, a young lieutenant Custer rode his horse into
the middle of the river and said "It's THIS deep
general". I think if everyone here got some top
notch coaching we could elevate the discussion.

Rob


=====
Rob Bradlee
Java, C++, Perl, XML, OOAD, Linux, and Unix Training

I'm actually a big believer in live personal coaching, and I've gotten
tremendous benefit from it, and I want more of it.

Rob Bradlee wrote:
This newsgroup has long discussions about
things that would made moot by five minutes of live coaching.

Yes, but live coaching from _which_ coach?

Nathan Schultz wrote:
there are a lot coaches out there who do
not have a very good handle on technique.

That sure fits my experience, and several other people's too.

Rob and Nathan already "know" which coaches are right. The rest of us
don't.

We still have to deal with eloquent articles by respectable coaches in XC
ski magazines teaching that old coaching lore -- and claiming to support
their old concepts from current World Cup videos.

We still have local coaches saying "those new skate concepts may be right
for national collegiate champions, but I know what really works in practice
for masters citizen skiers." And those old-lore coaches are pretty good at
giving live personal tips that _feel_ like they work to lots of citizen
skiers.

So how are the rest of us going to _decide_ which coach to put our faith in?

I don't see much alternative to presenting the diversity of things we're
hearing and reading and trying -- and debating about them.

And even if you find the "right" experts, what do you do when they disagree?
My live personal instructor of my breakthrough "new skate" lesson at a
leading ski-skating center tells me that the "forward-step" move is
important for me to practice. A week later an expert on this newsgroup
tells me "forward-step" is outmoded. Is there some official tribunal I
should have gone to for a tie-breaker?

Ken