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  #21  
Old December 5th 05, 11:40 PM
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VtSkier wrote:

Mary Malmros wrote:



foot2foot wrote:

Waterproof breathable "coatings" are useless.




If you're talking about the DWR coating that's placed on Gore-tex
outerwear, you're wrong.


DWR means Durable Water Repellent and it's function
is to make water bead up on the surface as PART of
the total function of a Gore-tex garment. It's not
intended to be water-PROOF.


And yet it's what a lot of people are referring to when they talk about
a "waterproof breathable coating". Note that I used ample explication
to make it quite clear what I was talking about, so you're picking at
nonexistent nits.

Ads
  #22  
Old December 5th 05, 11:57 PM
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Mary Malmros wrote:


VtSkier wrote:

Mary Malmros wrote:



foot2foot wrote:

Waterproof breathable "coatings" are useless.




If you're talking about the DWR coating that's placed on Gore-tex
outerwear, you're wrong.


DWR means Durable Water Repellent and it's function
is to make water bead up on the surface as PART of
the total function of a Gore-tex garment. It's not
intended to be water-PROOF.



And yet it's what a lot of people are referring to when they talk about
a "waterproof breathable coating". Note that I used ample explication
to make it quite clear what I was talking about, so you're picking at
nonexistent nits.


And I thought I was expanding on your explication about
DWR sprays. I didn't think I was picking nits at all.
And actually I don't think that too many people
actually believe that user applied sprays actually
make a garment waterproof (and breathable to boot).
Spraying Scotch Guard on jeans is just too old a
trick. It worked, for about half a day, then you
went home soaked.

Interestingly, and I've done this, spraying Textron or
NickWax DWR spray on your non-Gore-tex garment WILL
make the water bead up on it but it WON'T make it
waterproof.
  #23  
Old December 6th 05, 05:21 AM
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Mary Malmros wrote:


BrritSki wrote:


I was talking about my apology for that remark.



I never saw it here. Can you point me at it?

My reply to you in the fallback options thread, 1/12, 17.36, penultimate
paragraph:

"
Before the war his reports and actions indicated that he needed to keep
looking. See the url Walt posted dated Feb 23rd 2003 for evidence.

In May 2003 he was starting to have doubts:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,962405,00.html
(for those who don't know, the Guardian is a serious left-wing newspaper
in GB that is seriously anti Bush & Blair.

Then almost a year later when he has a book to sell his story changes
again (interesting story, no idea of the political leanings and
credibnility of the website, but I remember the BBC interview:
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/apostolou200402180915.asp

What I meant by "blow with the wind" was that his views changed to suit
the prevailing situation.

It took me but a few minutes to back up my assertion, why was it so
difficult for you to do the same ? Was it easier to start bleating
about intellectual dishonesty and so on before you'd even seen an
answer? Or did you mix me up with some of the other people in this
discussion ?

If you look back up the thread you'll find that apart from being rude to
Astro (arse on a plate) and the cheap shot against you earlier
(apologies - my knee was hurting and I'd just learnt that the local hill
is not opening tomorrow) I've not been calling people names, just asking
questions, putting an opposing POV and asking for quotes politely.

SHeesh.
"

  #24  
Old December 6th 05, 05:38 AM
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VtSkier wrote:
Mary Malmros wrote:



VtSkier wrote:

Mary Malmros wrote:



foot2foot wrote:

Waterproof breathable "coatings" are useless.





If you're talking about the DWR coating that's placed on Gore-tex
outerwear, you're wrong.


DWR means Durable Water Repellent and it's function
is to make water bead up on the surface as PART of
the total function of a Gore-tex garment. It's not
intended to be water-PROOF.




And yet it's what a lot of people are referring to when they talk
about a "waterproof breathable coating". Note that I used ample
explication to make it quite clear what I was talking about, so you're
picking at nonexistent nits.



And I thought I was expanding on your explication about
DWR sprays. I didn't think I was picking nits at all.
And actually I don't think that too many people
actually believe that user applied sprays actually
make a garment waterproof (and breathable to boot).
Spraying Scotch Guard on jeans is just too old a
trick. It worked, for about half a day, then you
went home soaked.

Interestingly, and I've done this, spraying Textron or
NickWax DWR spray on your non-Gore-tex garment WILL
make the water bead up on it but it WON'T make it
waterproof.


They make it water repellent, which is what they're supposed to do.
won't argue semantics about whether a garment finish that causes the
water that hits the surface to bead up and roll off, rather than soaking
in, is "waterproof" or not. The water rolls off, it doesn't soak in and
it doesn't go through, and that's what matters. Incidentally, I have a
spray-on product, but I've never used it -- I was told that the wash-in
product is better, and so that's what I've always used. It doesn't last
as long as the original DWR from the factory, but it lasts a lot longer
than half a day (I probably redo my kayak togs a little more than once a
year).

  #25  
Old December 6th 05, 04:25 PM
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"Sven Golly" wrote in message
...

"foot2foot" wrote in
:

No I didn't mean laminate. I meant membrane. A coating is a
coating. You spray it on.


Some you spray on. Some you laminate on. Some you weave in or fuse in.


Doesn't matter. Not if it's a waterproof breathable membrane
that really works.

It
all depends on who's doing what and how as to its effectiveness.


Well that certainly makes sense.

There are
sprayed on coatings that are highly effective


Nope.

and laminates that aren't.


That could be true. You need a waterproof breathable membrane
that works, like gore tex, helly tech, etc. It passes water as a
vapor, but not as a liquid.

You're mixing terminology without knowing what the ingredients are. I used
to work in apparel. I know a few things about it. So nyah, nyah, nyah.

--


Tell me of the spray on coating that works as well as a
"fabric created of materials and in such a way that it
passes water as a liquid but not a vapor" ,

Such fabric, that *Gore Tex* (who invented it) call a
membrane.

I'm saying the "whateveryoucallit" that *you* seem to call a
laminate, assuming it works as well as gore tex or helly tech or
some others, keeps you dry. Also, that a mere spray on coating
will not.

I think you've been propagandized by your work peeps, and
you've ended up eating it all like candy.

*What* spray on coating works as well as gore tex? Name it.
Eh?

And don't sidestep the presenting of actual backup information
again with more mere representations of personal authority.

I think we should take the membranes out of your kidneys and
spray some coating in there and see what you think then.

Thanks in advance.






  #26  
Old December 6th 05, 07:39 PM
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"VtSkier" wrote in message
...
bk wrote:
Skiing in Vt this winter. Have only been to Co a few times and always in
spring.
The local shops here tell me that We'll be fine with our shell type
jackets / pants with lt wt chilis and fleece. Is this correct?


Typical clothing for VT skiing from VtSkier
In addition to proper equipment for EasternFirm(tm) conditions:
Base: Lightweight long johns & tee in polyester or polypro
Shell ski pants, usually multi-layer but not insulated
mid-layer of lightweight fleece pull-over and vest
(the vest is one of many, usually NF Denali).
Shell parka, good gloves, neck gaiter (usually, but
always in my pocket) and hat/helmet and goggles.

If it's cold (below 10 deg F) add fleece pants over
long johns and under shell pants (duh!).
I also have a packable thinsulate jacket which goes
under my shell parka. Sometimes this goes over vest
if it's RealyCold(tm). At that point mittens replace
gloves and I add a face mask. I will also add a
helmet liner below 10 deg.

The second paragraph list has protected me well to
25 degrees below zero. Anything colder I sit out
by the fire.


Well, considering that I will be coming from a life time spent in Miami, I
can understand sitting by the fire when below 25 degrees. I might be sitting
there for anything much below mid teens. OUCH! Those temps gotta hurt.


  #27  
Old December 6th 05, 07:55 PM
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bk wrote:

Well, considering that I will be coming from a life time spent in Miami, I
can understand sitting by the fire when below 25 degrees. I might be sitting
there for anything much below mid teens. OUCH! Those temps gotta hurt.


One interesting thing about cold is that the reading on the thermometer
doesn't always correlate with how cold it feels. 15 degrees farenheit
with sunny skies, no wind, and low humidity is actually quite pleasant.
35 degrees with heavy cloud cover, 100% humidity and wind will
actually feel much colder. At least it does to me. I've skied into the
minus thirties, but felt colder on higher temperature days.

//Walt
  #28  
Old December 6th 05, 09:19 PM
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bk wrote:
"VtSkier" wrote in message
...

bk wrote:

Skiing in Vt this winter. Have only been to Co a few times and always in
spring.
The local shops here tell me that We'll be fine with our shell type
jackets / pants with lt wt chilis and fleece. Is this correct?


Typical clothing for VT skiing from VtSkier
In addition to proper equipment for EasternFirm(tm) conditions:
Base: Lightweight long johns & tee in polyester or polypro
Shell ski pants, usually multi-layer but not insulated
mid-layer of lightweight fleece pull-over and vest
(the vest is one of many, usually NF Denali).
Shell parka, good gloves, neck gaiter (usually, but
always in my pocket) and hat/helmet and goggles.

If it's cold (below 10 deg F) add fleece pants over
long johns and under shell pants (duh!).
I also have a packable thinsulate jacket which goes
under my shell parka. Sometimes this goes over vest
if it's RealyCold(tm). At that point mittens replace
gloves and I add a face mask. I will also add a
helmet liner below 10 deg.

The second paragraph list has protected me well to
25 degrees below zero. Anything colder I sit out
by the fire.



Well, considering that I will be coming from a life time spent in Miami, I
can understand sitting by the fire when below 25 degrees. I might be sitting
there for anything much below mid teens. OUCH! Those temps gotta hurt.


Are you sure you read this right? 25 degrees is WARM!
I am talking about 25 degrees below zero. Minus 25 degrees!
  #29  
Old December 6th 05, 09:22 PM
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Default

bk wrote:
"VtSkier" wrote in message
...

bk wrote:

Skiing in Vt this winter. Have only been to Co a few times and always in
spring.
The local shops here tell me that We'll be fine with our shell type
jackets / pants with lt wt chilis and fleece. Is this correct?


Typical clothing for VT skiing from VtSkier
In addition to proper equipment for EasternFirm(tm) conditions:
Base: Lightweight long johns & tee in polyester or polypro
Shell ski pants, usually multi-layer but not insulated
mid-layer of lightweight fleece pull-over and vest
(the vest is one of many, usually NF Denali).
Shell parka, good gloves, neck gaiter (usually, but
always in my pocket) and hat/helmet and goggles.

If it's cold (below 10 deg F) add fleece pants over
long johns and under shell pants (duh!).
I also have a packable thinsulate jacket which goes
under my shell parka. Sometimes this goes over vest
if it's RealyCold(tm). At that point mittens replace
gloves and I add a face mask. I will also add a
helmet liner below 10 deg.

The second paragraph list has protected me well to
25 degrees below zero. Anything colder I sit out
by the fire.



Well, considering that I will be coming from a life time spent in Miami, I
can understand sitting by the fire when below 25 degrees. I might be sitting
there for anything much below mid teens. OUCH! Those temps gotta hurt.


Yeah, this is my second reply to this same post...

You remember the thread about "Coldest skiing ever"?
You will note that I didn't reply because all of the
temps you guys were talking about seemed fairly
reasonable around here.
  #30  
Old December 7th 05, 01:15 AM
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"foot2foot" wrote in message
...


"Sven Golly" wrote in message
...

"foot2foot" wrote in
:

No I didn't mean laminate. I meant membrane. A coating is a
coating. You spray it on.


Some you spray on. Some you laminate on. Some you weave in or fuse in.


Doesn't matter. Not if it's a waterproof breathable membrane
that really works.

It
all depends on who's doing what and how as to its effectiveness.


Well that certainly makes sense.

There are
sprayed on coatings that are highly effective


Nope.

and laminates that aren't.


That could be true. You need a waterproof breathable membrane
that works, like gore tex, helly tech, etc. It passes water as a
vapor, but not as a liquid.

You're mixing terminology without knowing what the ingredients are. I
used
to work in apparel. I know a few things about it. So nyah, nyah, nyah.

--


Tell me of the spray on coating that works as well as a
"fabric created of materials and in such a way that it
passes water as a liquid but not a vapor" ,

Such fabric, that *Gore Tex* (who invented it) call a
membrane.

I'm saying the "whateveryoucallit" that *you* seem to call a
laminate, assuming it works as well as gore tex or helly tech or
some others, keeps you dry. Also, that a mere spray on coating
will not.

I think you've been propagandized by your work peeps, and
you've ended up eating it all like candy.

*What* spray on coating works as well as gore tex? Name it.
Eh?

And don't sidestep the presenting of actual backup information
again with more mere representations of personal authority.

I think we should take the membranes out of your kidneys and
spray some coating in there and see what you think then.

Thanks in advance.


EGO


 




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