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Inliner speed vs. Rollerski speed



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 4th 03, 09:50 AM
Bob Creasote
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Default Inliner speed vs. Rollerski speed

Hi,

Why are inline skates so much faster than rollerskis? The motion is similar
yet inlers go so much faster. And they don't even have stocks!!! Or do I
just have to work on my technique more?

thanks

Bob


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  #2  
Old September 4th 03, 11:07 AM
Ken Roberts
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Posts: n/a
Default Inliner speed vs. Rollerski speed

This question is tricky for me, since one perspective is that a racing-style
inline skate _is_ a kind of skate rollerski -- one with a better-integrated
ski / boot / binding system. An inline skate is a rollerski that has been
optimized for fun, maneuverability, safety, speed, and fun on pavement.

Why are inline skates so much faster than rollerskis?


Actually I think some rollerskis are faster than some inline skates.

I think the biggest factor for speed is the material and design of the
wheels. Other things being equal, wheels made out of hard urethane plastic
will have far less rolling friction than wheels made of softer rubber.

Mount soft Carbonics wheels on an inline skate, and it will be slow. Put
hard urethane 100 mm wheels on a rollerski, and it will be faster.

I'd guess that the next most important factor is the number of wheels. I
haven't studied rolling friction, but I can imaging arguments for why having
the weight of the skier/skater distributed over more points of contact with
the pavement yields lower rolling friction. I recall that one model of fast
rollerski has three wheels per ski.

Seems like more points of contact per ski helps with maneuverability too --
lack of which is my biggest objection to rollerskis.

I'm guessing that the reasons that most rollerskis have only two wheels a
(1) to avoid becoming too much heavier than snow skis; and (2) cheapness.

But maybe there's some other reason?

Ken


  #3  
Old September 4th 03, 11:54 AM
Bob Creasote
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Posts: n/a
Default Inliner speed vs. Rollerski speed

Thanks Ken,

I think that I have a pretty fast pair of rollerskis (Dynaskates with rubber
wheels) but sometimes I get these guys on inliners flying past me. I've also
seen some hardcore, crazy fast **** on the JaneG's site. Man, it looked like
these inliners were travelling at about 50+kmph!!!! I mean these guys were
flying. There is no way I could ever hope to go that fast on Rollerskis.

I am definately no technique ace but I often wonder this whilst out training
when some kook comes flying by. I was thinking that maybe it was the fact
that you could push through with your toes to get a bit more of a "flick" in
the stroke, hence more power for longer.

Do you really think it is just the rolling friction alone? Or is it the
technique as well? (Maybe it's just my technique :O)

cheers

Bob

"Ken Roberts" wrote in message
...
This question is tricky for me, since one perspective is that a

racing-style
inline skate _is_ a kind of skate rollerski -- one with a

better-integrated
ski / boot / binding system. An inline skate is a rollerski that has been
optimized for fun, maneuverability, safety, speed, and fun on pavement.

Why are inline skates so much faster than rollerskis?


Actually I think some rollerskis are faster than some inline skates.

I think the biggest factor for speed is the material and design of the
wheels. Other things being equal, wheels made out of hard urethane

plastic
will have far less rolling friction than wheels made of softer rubber.

Mount soft Carbonics wheels on an inline skate, and it will be slow. Put
hard urethane 100 mm wheels on a rollerski, and it will be faster.

I'd guess that the next most important factor is the number of wheels. I
haven't studied rolling friction, but I can imaging arguments for why

having
the weight of the skier/skater distributed over more points of contact

with
the pavement yields lower rolling friction. I recall that one model of

fast
rollerski has three wheels per ski.

Seems like more points of contact per ski helps with maneuverability

too --
lack of which is my biggest objection to rollerskis.

I'm guessing that the reasons that most rollerskis have only two wheels

a
(1) to avoid becoming too much heavier than snow skis; and (2) cheapness.

But maybe there's some other reason?

Ken




  #4  
Old September 4th 03, 02:06 PM
Ken Roberts
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Inliner speed vs. Rollerski speed

Bob Creasote wrote
I was thinking that maybe it was the fact
that you could push through with your toes
to get a bit more of a "flick" in the stroke,
hence more power for longer.


Toe-push has usually thought of as a novice mistake in skating. Now the
elite ice racers have found that there's a "right" way to do it on ice --
using special ice skates that are becoming more like a XC ski binding. But
still the general advice is that most racers will improve more if they focus
on pushing more thru the heel.

For inline skates it's debatable whether anybody but maybe a tiny elite
group of racers can get any benefit from toe-push to increase skating speed
on pavement. So again the general advice is that most inliners will improve
their skating effectiveness if they keep working more on pushing thru the
heel. (many inline skaters ignore this advice, or never hear it.)

Anyway if there is any advantage to toe-push for speed on pavement, surely
it lies with the guys on _rollerskis_, not inlines, since the boot-binding
system with rollerskis enables a much more effective toe-push.

You'd think with all the warnings going around on this group about dryland
training wrecking your on-snow technique, someone would take the trouble to
post a bold-red-print warning about staying away from skate _rollerskis_,
because they encourage and reward toe-pushing.

Do you really think it is just the rolling friction alone?


Have you ever _tried_ skating on a good inline skate with 83A-hard wheels?

Or is it the technique as well?


How about training?
Skating uses some muscles differently from bicycling. If those inline guys
zooming past you have been specifically training those muscles and neural
control patterns for years -- and you've only been training them for three
weeks (and unconsciously skewing your technique to avoid the non-bicycling
muscles) -- then what result do you expect?

There's been a rumor that there's more to this XC skiing thing than just
another venue to apply your V02max.

Ken


  #5  
Old September 4th 03, 02:33 PM
Bob Creasote
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Inliner speed vs. Rollerski speed

more to this XC skiing thing than just
another venue to apply your V02max.


Man believe me, I am finding that out bloody fast. When I am fit and lean my
VO2max has been measured at 81 ml/kg but that seems to matter didley squat
in this sport without a well honed technique. It is so frustrating! But I am
determined to get this, even if it not until I am 60 before I do!!! (yes, I
am patient)


"Ken Roberts" wrote in message
...
Bob Creasote wrote
I was thinking that maybe it was the fact
that you could push through with your toes
to get a bit more of a "flick" in the stroke,
hence more power for longer.


Toe-push has usually thought of as a novice mistake in skating. Now the
elite ice racers have found that there's a "right" way to do it on ice --
using special ice skates that are becoming more like a XC ski binding.

But
still the general advice is that most racers will improve more if they

focus
on pushing more thru the heel.

For inline skates it's debatable whether anybody but maybe a tiny elite
group of racers can get any benefit from toe-push to increase skating

speed
on pavement. So again the general advice is that most inliners will

improve
their skating effectiveness if they keep working more on pushing thru the
heel. (many inline skaters ignore this advice, or never hear it.)

Anyway if there is any advantage to toe-push for speed on pavement, surely
it lies with the guys on _rollerskis_, not inlines, since the boot-binding
system with rollerskis enables a much more effective toe-push.

You'd think with all the warnings going around on this group about dryland
training wrecking your on-snow technique, someone would take the trouble

to
post a bold-red-print warning about staying away from skate _rollerskis_,
because they encourage and reward toe-pushing.

Do you really think it is just the rolling friction alone?


Have you ever _tried_ skating on a good inline skate with 83A-hard wheels?

Or is it the technique as well?


How about training?
Skating uses some muscles differently from bicycling. If those inline

guys
zooming past you have been specifically training those muscles and neural
control patterns for years -- and you've only been training them for three
weeks (and unconsciously skewing your technique to avoid the non-bicycling
muscles) -- then what result do you expect?

There's been a rumor that there's more to this XC skiing thing than just
another venue to apply your V02max.

Ken




  #6  
Old September 4th 03, 03:43 PM
Rob Bradlee
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Inliner speed vs. Rollerski speed

If you are anywhere near New England I'm doing a
series of one day clinics focusing on technique (on
rollerskis) this fall. See www.nensa.net for details.

Rob Bradlee

--- Bob Creasote wrote:
more to this XC skiing thing than just
another venue to apply your V02max.


Man believe me, I am finding that out bloody fast.
When I am fit and lean my
VO2max has been measured at 81 ml/kg but that seems
to matter didley squat
in this sport without a well honed technique. It is
so frustrating! But I am
determined to get this, even if it not until I am 60
before I do!!! (yes, I
am patient)


"Ken Roberts" wrote in
message

...
Bob Creasote wrote
I was thinking that maybe it was the fact
that you could push through with your toes
to get a bit more of a "flick" in the stroke,
hence more power for longer.


Toe-push has usually thought of as a novice

mistake in skating. Now the
elite ice racers have found that there's a "right"

way to do it on ice --
using special ice skates that are becoming more

like a XC ski binding.
But
still the general advice is that most racers will

improve more if they
focus
on pushing more thru the heel.

For inline skates it's debatable whether anybody

but maybe a tiny elite
group of racers can get any benefit from toe-push

to increase skating
speed
on pavement. So again the general advice is that

most inliners will
improve
their skating effectiveness if they keep working

more on pushing thru the
heel. (many inline skaters ignore this advice, or

never hear it.)

Anyway if there is any advantage to toe-push for

speed on pavement, surely
it lies with the guys on _rollerskis_, not

inlines, since the boot-binding
system with rollerskis enables a much more

effective toe-push.

You'd think with all the warnings going around on

this group about dryland
training wrecking your on-snow technique, someone

would take the trouble
to
post a bold-red-print warning about staying away

from skate _rollerskis_,
because they encourage and reward toe-pushing.

Do you really think it is just the rolling

friction alone?

Have you ever _tried_ skating on a good inline

skate with 83A-hard wheels?

Or is it the technique as well?


How about training?
Skating uses some muscles differently from

bicycling. If those inline
guys
zooming past you have been specifically training

those muscles and neural
control patterns for years -- and you've only been

training them for three
weeks (and unconsciously skewing your technique to

avoid the non-bicycling
muscles) -- then what result do you expect?

There's been a rumor that there's more to this XC

skiing thing than just
another venue to apply your V02max.

Ken










=====
Rob Bradlee
Java, C++, Perl, XML, OOAD, Linux, and Unix Training




  #7  
Old September 4th 03, 06:50 PM
Bob Creasote
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Inliner speed vs. Rollerski speed

How come? Do the 5 wheels reduce slippage? If the skate is gripping to the
ground with 4 wheels or 5 wheels equally then would this make a difference?
I guess they are not though. I don't know.


"Fitzgerald" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
et...
Another reason 5 wheels are faster than 4 is that you have a bigger
"platform" to push off from.
Fitzgerald
5 Wheeler




  #8  
Old September 4th 03, 07:00 PM
Bob Creasote
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Inliner speed vs. Rollerski speed

Ok, I went out tonight down to one of my training areas where there are
stacks of bladers. All types of people form novices to weapons. I am pretty
sure that the actual rollerskis are slower as I am far slower when just
cruising/gliding along than someone doing the inliner equivelent. Even doing
threshold efforts is far slower than someone going at far less intensity.

OK, again, my technique sucks and I need some serious work in this dept but
a few of the people I was following were probably about an equivelent level.





"Ken Roberts" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
Bob Creasote wrote
I was thinking that maybe it was the fact
that you could push through with your toes
to get a bit more of a "flick" in the stroke,
hence more power for longer.


Toe-push has usually thought of as a novice mistake in skating. Now the
elite ice racers have found that there's a "right" way to do it on ice --
using special ice skates that are becoming more like a XC ski binding.

But
still the general advice is that most racers will improve more if they

focus
on pushing more thru the heel.

For inline skates it's debatable whether anybody but maybe a tiny elite
group of racers can get any benefit from toe-push to increase skating

speed
on pavement. So again the general advice is that most inliners will

improve
their skating effectiveness if they keep working more on pushing thru the
heel. (many inline skaters ignore this advice, or never hear it.)

Anyway if there is any advantage to toe-push for speed on pavement, surely
it lies with the guys on _rollerskis_, not inlines, since the boot-binding
system with rollerskis enables a much more effective toe-push.

You'd think with all the warnings going around on this group about dryland
training wrecking your on-snow technique, someone would take the trouble

to
post a bold-red-print warning about staying away from skate _rollerskis_,
because they encourage and reward toe-pushing.

Do you really think it is just the rolling friction alone?


Have you ever _tried_ skating on a good inline skate with 83A-hard wheels?

Or is it the technique as well?


How about training?
Skating uses some muscles differently from bicycling. If those inline

guys
zooming past you have been specifically training those muscles and neural
control patterns for years -- and you've only been training them for three
weeks (and unconsciously skewing your technique to avoid the non-bicycling
muscles) -- then what result do you expect?

There's been a rumor that there's more to this XC skiing thing than just
another venue to apply your V02max.

Ken




  #9  
Old September 4th 03, 07:03 PM
Bob Creasote
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Inliner speed vs. Rollerski speed

I just checked JaneG's site and there is the rollerski WM from last year or
something. Crazy fast too. I have a **** load of work to do on this.



"Jeff Potter" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
.. .
I spose you'd want to check out the speeds of rollerski races to see how

skis
really can do compared to inlines.

They seem darn fast! With maybe the small final diff due to the number of
wheels.

Is there a race rollerski rule restricting to 2 wheels? To a free heel?

That
all seems dumb. It seems like they skate like inliners when that's fastest

then
use poles up the big hills when that's fastest. If inlines are fastest

overall
then rollerskiers should be inlining...they shouldn't even bring poles

onto the
course. If I was fastest in a ski race without my poles I wouldn't bring

them.
How could there be a technical difference between SKIING and SKATING?

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
for modern folkways and culture revival...
...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies...
...new books featuring: XC ski culture, a Gulf Coast thriller
folding bicycles ... with radical novels coming up!
...original downloadable music ... and articles galore!
plus national "Off the Beaten Path" travel forums! HOLY SMOKES!




  #10  
Old September 4th 03, 08:03 PM
Serge
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Inliner speed vs. Roller ski speed

I am, probably, the only speed skater on this board that doubles as
half-ass skier in winter time (here in California we have 3 months of
snow - in the mountains).

Yes, skates are fast. We do marathons in slightly over one hour and
50k in less than hour and a half. Some pro's can drop a good cyclist
on short distance.
Downhills can push mph. 100k's and 82mi races are drawing big crowds.

The are 2 reasons that skates are so much faster:

1. 5x84mm wheel or 4x100mm wheels are much faster than 2x100mm (let
alone those
Ski Skett's on 60mm barrel wheels).

2. Low aerodynamic position, drafting (you guess it right -no poles).

Roller skis were developed as a substitute for snow skiing, not a fast
transportation.

Skates, that most people use instead of roller skis (hard shell high
boot)
have no more in common with speed skates than balloon beach cruisers
with
high - end racing bikes or wooden skis/loop binding with skis that we
use.

That is exactly the reason I am getting roller skis although I can use
all the skates I have.
There is no substitute.

By the way, one of the most advanced skating companies, Millennium
skates, is
working on their model roller ski and they already made a 100mm wheel
too. Nothing inflatable or suspension rigged.
Just plain, light, reliable, US made roller ski from the best people
in
skating business.
 




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