Which Run? (Blue/Red/Black)

"Ace" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:35:59 GMT, "Nick Hounsome"
wrote:


"Greg Hilton" wrote in message
...
It really depends on you and what you want to acheive. You can carve on
red and black runs, in order to slow down you need to carry on carving
more than you would on the blues, so you carve back uphill, which slows
you down.

Yes but if you start and then carve to a stop you will find that you have
lost almost no height so what's the point?

That's just not the case - there's always a significant loss of
momentum even if you're doing as 'pure' a carve as the skis allow,

You must not be skiing hard packed piste or just not carving - I can carve
from stand still to stand still on a wide blue slope and only lose a couple
of metres and I'm not great.

just down to friction, plus if you are trying to bleed speed you'll
tend to skid a bit as well, particularly if you're coming to a virtual
halt.

The OP is hung up on carving - he doesn't think good skiers skid.

I think that my original question has been misunderstood:

a) I'm not asking about carving. When I learnt how to ski, carving was only
really mentioned by those who didn't know what it was. For example, people who
had learnt to ski parallel might make reference to their carved turns. I now
know exactly what carving is and how to do it. No further questions required!
(thanks to everyone on this newsgroup who helped btw!!)

b) I wasn't asking about what each colour of run is like. I think that I've
been on every run in almost every condition! (I live and ski in Scotland)

When I was on holiday, I noticed that there were 2 types of skiier on the red
runs. The majority were skiing in exactly the same manner as myself - parallel.
The others were travelling around twice as fast as myself - also skiing
parallel but not making such big turns. They either knew the run extremely well
or were being very wreckless.
My difficulty was being able to maintain a nice fast rhythm without having to
make a christie stop every couple of 'turns'. I understand that there must be a
terminal velocity due to the friction of the 'semi-turns' but this was too fast
given the conditions. I didn't see anybody skiing at a 'safe' speed (for a
tourist) while making quick, successive turns. Is it possible to do this
without reverting to a sort of christie stop - where you just keep the skis on
edge (until you've lost some speed) before entering the next turn.

I know that it sounds like I was just being over-cautious but that really
wasn't the case. I'm not a nervous skiier at all but had to face reality. I saw
accidents all over the slopes all of the time - the slopes are less crowded in
Scotland (no quick lift systems here!)

i) It was icey
ii) It was very crowded (1st week of the New Year in one of Europe's busiest
resorts)
iii) I didn't know the terrain
iv) My edges were becoming worn
== I felt that I had to keep my speed down.

Perhaps my technique is poor. Alex Heney stated that "You should be able to
slow down by skidding your turns. If you can't do that on a red, then you are
very much only a borderline
intermediate skier."
I've studied numerous guides to skiing and don't think that I'm doing anything
wrong. Moreover, two of the instructors at the local 'dry' slope said that they
didn't know anything else to teach me. However, I haven't had any instruction
on an icey run.
I might have missed an important aspect of skiing!? I tried to keep my body
away from the hill so that my edges had more grip but this didn't seem to help.
Is my technique wrong?? Any tips for ice??

I watched the really good skiiers when I was on holiday so that I could copy
their actions. I noticed that they were avoiding the regular christie stops
(slow-downs in my case) by ignoring their speed (and thus reaching their
terminal velocity). I think that I had the ability to ski in this manner but
other factors (outlined above) made this ambition unsafe. I returned to the
blue slopes.

Therefore, I can conclude that either:
1. My technique is wrong and I have to learn how to ski on ice / hard-packed
snow
2. The red runs, with the aforementioned snow conditions and crowds, were not
suitable for those with little or no knowledge of the run (the majority)
3. It is acceptable to ski slowly on red runs.

What's the general opinion?
I'd really like to know the answer because if number 1 applies (and I fully
accept that it might), then I really must get some lessons!!

Thanks
Niall

Overall, I think you are thinking way too much..

I ski almost anything, and all the stuff you are talking about is confusing
me.. I hop off the lift and go down the slope.. thats it..

If you do no feel comfortable on red runs you are either:

1) A nervous skier
2) Still at a beginner, maybe low intermediate stage.

I really can't see it any other way.. my girlfriend is not a bad skier,
however she doesn't feel comfortable on most blacks and some reds.. this is
not because she's a bad skier, she is just nervous..

I know that I was skiing red runs, although with a bit of care, after my
first week of skiing. Now, I don't really even turn going down a red run
(depending I suppose, there are some toughish red runs at some resorts I've
been to).. you can only go so fast down most red runs, they are not steep
enough in most cases.. the wind and your friction on the ground will slow
you down once you reach that certain speed..

I have never had a problem with people skiing slow on red runs, or any runs
for that matter. As long as you ski predictably, there shouldn't be any
trouble. As people in this thread have mentioned, its the person behind you
who has the responsibility of not crashing into you.. not the other way
around..


"NIALLBRUCE" wrote in message
...
I think that my original question has been misunderstood:

a) I'm not asking about carving. When I learnt how to ski, carving was
only
really mentioned by those who didn't know what it was. For example, people
who
had learnt to ski parallel might make reference to their carved turns. I
now
know exactly what carving is and how to do it. No further questions
required!
(thanks to everyone on this newsgroup who helped btw!!)

b) I wasn't asking about what each colour of run is like. I think that
I've
been on every run in almost every condition! (I live and ski in Scotland)

When I was on holiday, I noticed that there were 2 types of skiier on the
red
runs. The majority were skiing in exactly the same manner as myself -
parallel.
The others were travelling around twice as fast as myself - also skiing
parallel but not making such big turns. They either knew the run extremely
well
or were being very wreckless.
My difficulty was being able to maintain a nice fast rhythm without having
to
make a christie stop every couple of 'turns'. I understand that there must
be a
terminal velocity due to the friction of the 'semi-turns' but this was too
fast
given the conditions. I didn't see anybody skiing at a 'safe' speed (for a
tourist) while making quick, successive turns. Is it possible to do this
without reverting to a sort of christie stop - where you just keep the
skis on
edge (until you've lost some speed) before entering the next turn.

I know that it sounds like I was just being over-cautious but that really
wasn't the case. I'm not a nervous skiier at all but had to face reality.
I saw
accidents all over the slopes all of the time - the slopes are less
crowded in
Scotland (no quick lift systems here!)

i) It was icey
ii) It was very crowded (1st week of the New Year in one of Europe's
busiest
resorts)
iii) I didn't know the terrain
iv) My edges were becoming worn
== I felt that I had to keep my speed down.

Perhaps my technique is poor. Alex Heney stated that "You should be able
to
slow down by skidding your turns. If you can't do that on a red, then you
are
very much only a borderline
intermediate skier."
I've studied numerous guides to skiing and don't think that I'm doing
anything
wrong. Moreover, two of the instructors at the local 'dry' slope said that
they
didn't know anything else to teach me. However, I haven't had any
instruction
on an icey run.
I might have missed an important aspect of skiing!? I tried to keep my
body
away from the hill so that my edges had more grip but this didn't seem to
help.
Is my technique wrong?? Any tips for ice??

I watched the really good skiiers when I was on holiday so that I could
copy
their actions. I noticed that they were avoiding the regular christie
stops
(slow-downs in my case) by ignoring their speed (and thus reaching their
terminal velocity). I think that I had the ability to ski in this manner
but
other factors (outlined above) made this ambition unsafe. I returned to
the
blue slopes.

Therefore, I can conclude that either:
1. My technique is wrong and I have to learn how to ski on ice /
hard-packed
snow
2. The red runs, with the aforementioned snow conditions and crowds, were
not
suitable for those with little or no knowledge of the run (the majority)
3. It is acceptable to ski slowly on red runs.

What's the general opinion?
I'd really like to know the answer because if number 1 applies (and I
fully
accept that it might), then I really must get some lessons!!

Thanks
Niall

On 22 Jan 2005 00:21:51 GMT, (NIALLBRUCE) squeezed
out the following:

When I was on holiday, I noticed that there were 2 types of skiier on the red
runs. The majority were skiing in exactly the same manner as myself - parallel.
The others were travelling around twice as fast as myself - also skiing
parallel but not making such big turns.

I sometimes make the same observation.

They either knew the run extremely well
or were being very wreckless.

Or they were simply better skiers. Many of the quicker skiers are in
more control than many of the slower skiers, and they may be skiing
the piste for the first time.

How are you on the old "vertical movement"? It may be a cliche, and
possibly even out of fashion, but when I see a head bobbing up and
down quite quickly as someone gradually appears in sight over the brow
of a hill then, IME, it inevitably turns out to belong to a good and
quick skier.

--
Colin Irvine

Felly sgrifennodd NIALLBRUCE :
My difficulty was being able to maintain a nice fast rhythm without having to
make a christie stop every couple of 'turns'.

I think what you're aiming at here is wedeling (from German wedeln). I was
taught to do this by being told to keep in the track that a piste basher
had made (I suppose about 3 or 4 metres wide), initially on a not-too-steep
slope (though it doesn't work if there isn't a reasonable slope to the
piste). If you've got it perfect, the body actually goes in a pretty straight
line down the fall-line, with your legs doing all the side-to-side movement
beneath you. It really feels good, too, when you get into that rhythm.
Definitely worth practicing!

Definition he http://www.bartleby.com/61/74/W0077400.html

Adrian

--
Adrian Shaw ais@
Adran Cyfrifiadureg, Prifysgol Cymru, aber.
Aberystwyth, Ceredigion, Cymru ac.
http://users.aber.ac.uk/ais uk

NIALLBRUCE wrote:

A couple of observations:

iv) My edges were becoming worn

This could be a major source of the problem. Your edges must be very
sharp for skiing on hard packed snow.



Therefore, I can conclude that either:
1. My technique is wrong and I have to learn how to ski on ice / hard-packed
snow

On ice there is not much you can do but try and keep balance and get
over it. Fortuneately pure ice is very rare and the blue/green colour is
very obvious. It is often easy, and wise, to avoid.

What skis were you using? Flexible skis suitable for beginers, moguls
and powder snow may struggle on hard pack. Stiffer GS skis make the
world of difference. The difference is really startling.

Out of interest the only time I skied Courmayeur (about 20 years ago!)
it was so quiet they switched the lifts on when you got to the bottom
rather than have them running empty all the time.

John

Niall
Two books for you which I sincerely think you will appreciate:

1) The All-mountain Skier: The Way to Expert Skiing, R. Mark Elling
(Technical, "scientific", you'll love it if you haven't already
discovered it)

2) Inner Skiing, Gallwey and Kriegel (Removing mental blockages that
inhibit sports performance in general and skiing in particular)

Read these (Amazon has a deal on them right now), come back and read
and try to understand what this group has been trying to tell you
(there is *some* accumulated wisdom here) and then:

Ski.
Ski lots more.
Ski some more in bad conditions.
Ski in a total white out.
Ski in flat light on bumps.
Go back to the occasional blue and feel god-like.
Stop looking at other skiers.
Enjoy! The right way to ski is the one that leaves the biggest smile on
your face.
Report back to the group.

What seems fast to you is normal for other skiers usually because they
are relaxed and in balance. IMHO it is more about balance than edges
or carving - sometimes I won't bother to try and put an edge on ice,
it's often better to go with the flow and wait for something you can
turn on. An instructor once said to me, "You can't change the slope.
But you can change your strategy."

Sammy

On 22 Jan 2005 12:07:43 -0800, "Sammy" wrote:

(there is *some* accumulated wisdom here) and then:

....

Enjoy! The right way to ski is the one that leaves the biggest smile on
your face.

And that is the most important bit of "accumulated wisdom". That is
what it is all about.
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
The best way to win an argument is to be right.

To reply by email, my address is alexATheneyDOTplusDOTcom

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 18:09:32 GMT, "Nick Hounsome"
wrote:


"Ace" wrote in message
.. .

That's just not the case - there's always a significant loss of
momentum even if you're doing as 'pure' a carve as the skis allow,

You must not be skiing hard packed piste or just not carving - I can carve
from stand still to stand still on a wide blue slope and only lose a couple
of metres and I'm not great.

I'd humbly suggest that if you were doing so in a high-speed situation
you would be losing a lot more than that. The faster you're going, the
(exponentially) greater the friction forces on the ski.

The OP is hung up on carving - he doesn't think good skiers skid.

Yeah, I know. But we also know he's wrong, don't we?

--
Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
Ski Club of Great Britain - http://www.skiclub.co.uk
All opinions expressed are personal and in no way represent those of the Ski Club.

Ace wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 18:09:32 GMT, "Nick Hounsome"
wrote:


"Ace" wrote in message
. ..


That's just not the case - there's always a significant loss of
momentum even if you're doing as 'pure' a carve as the skis allow,

You must not be skiing hard packed piste or just not carving - I can carve

from stand still to stand still on a wide blue slope and only lose a couple

of metres and I'm not great.


I'd humbly suggest that if you were doing so in a high-speed situation
you would be losing a lot more than that. The faster you're going, the
(exponentially) greater the friction forces on the ski.

Yes, but it's not friction.

There are several things going on.

a) Friction. Completely independent of speed. Once you're slipping,
you're slipping, and it makes no difference how fast you're going.
b) Displacement of the snow ahead of the ski. Assuming the snow
displaces in the same way at high speed as at low speed, then the
force here is constant too.
c) Compressing the snow at the edge of the ski, causing the carve.
The snow will compress when carving, and by compressing it we
will slow down. The amount the snow compresses depends on how
fast we are going. and varies as the square of velocity.

Ben