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#11
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On 27 Feb 2006 22:33:30 -0800, "Camilo" wrote:
Why don't running races of similar duration end up like this so consistently? Because drafting is less a factor. JFT **************************** Remove "remove" to reply Visit http://www.jt10000.com **************************** |
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#12
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And because drafting and using the pack is more a factor in ski races,
the whole thing risks being a little less interesting for racers and, ultimately, spectators. In pro basketball, the back and forth is often the better team sleepwalking through much of the game, with periods where they wake up or give a nod to their coach's prodding, and then turn it on in the final two or three minutes. Gene John Forrest Tomlinson wrote: On 27 Feb 2006 22:33:30 -0800, "Camilo" wrote: Why don't running races of similar duration end up like this so consistently? Because drafting is less a factor. |
#13
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To Camilo: I think the drafting in skiing seems to be good enough to
help the pack, but not so good for a small group to benefit in a break the way they do in cycling. This discourages breakaways. I also think that ski teams cant (or wont) attempt to control a race like they can in cycling. This may be something that will evolve, I dont know, its a different mind set altogether from cycling. Again, this is not conducive to breakaways succeeding. As far as the basketball analogy is concerned, at least there are lead changes, changes in the momentum of each team. In WC mass starts, there is none of this, its just a fast march to a sprint. You mention handling the charges in skiing, but there really are no charges in these races, and pretty much everyone knows to conserve energy until the last few K. To me, there should be more to a mass start than just timing your sprint. Ill just watch the sprints in that case. Think of bike racing and the classics like Roubaix, etc. Those races dont end in pack sprints every year, or else they wouldnt be classics. (I know, Paris-Tours is an exception :-) |
#14
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I agree with Shane that watching biathlon is far more exciting than
watching the x-c skiing, and I say that as an avid skier who's never done biathlon. There are real gaps, and real opportunities suddenly to gain and lose time. It's a bit like snakes and ladders, without the ladders. The mass start biathlons were the most exciting sport to watch in the Olympics, I thought. Having 20 or more skiers shooting more or less at the same time, and seeing skiers suddenly drop behind because of missed shots, was amazing. The excellent graphics helped enormously, being able to see exactly who was shooting what. I was amazed too by the women's shooting, which seemed better than that of the men. There was real drama in the biathlon races, not so much in the x-c. I'm not sure if this question has been addressed befo were the courses of these games easier than ones in the past? Presumably one way to produce some spread in the longer races is to make the hills tougher. It's very hard to tell how tough the hills are just watching on tv. It didn't seem as though there were any particularly long hills. Onno |
#15
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Interesting discussion, thanks. I still am a fan of mass start XC
racing, but I think I understand the draw backs and why they exist compared to other competative sports. |
#16
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It may be more enjoyable to watch mass starts live, cos its easier to
see and appreciate the attrition of the field in general. I really wish they would could bring back the old style pursuit though, cos it allows the classic skiers to shine a bit. the classic part of the 30K double is just a formality it seems. and the alternation of the techniques in the 15 and 50 is a bit much, 30 and 50 i can see, but not 15/50 Camilo wrote: Interesting discussion, thanks. I still am a fan of mass start XC racing, but I think I understand the draw backs and why they exist compared to other competative sports. |
#17
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On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 07:37:41 -0600, Gene Goldenfeld
wrote: And because drafting and using the pack is more a factor in ski races, the whole thing risks being a little less interesting for racers and, ultimately, spectators. What evidence do you have for that, other than analogie with basketball? JT **************************** Remove "remove" to reply Visit http://www.jt10000.com **************************** |
#18
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Man, I think it's much more interesting to watch an individual start 50
km. You see the split times and who's haulin' ass early, and then you wonder if they can hang on as their start doggin' at the 42 km check point. I think it's harder on the athletes because it's hard to drive yourself and it's much harder to rest in a pack (but it does happen). I'd think a 50 km individual start would just flood the system with lactic acid. The race also has some strategy about weather to post slow or fast early times. Bring back the individual start (and Daehlie, Mogren, etc....) Jay Wenner |
#19
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For the racers, they say it. For the spectators, just a hunch (I use
the word 'risk'). And not just for basketball. Any sport with a similar dynamic. I mentioned pro football, too, which is often decided in the last two minutes, if not the last two seconds, by a team that's done little for most of the preceding 58+ minutes. That gets by because the fans can party for the preceding three hours and just be mesmerized by the announcers and camera angles. The problem cross country skiing has as a TV sport (and for announcers) is that it's repetitive motion that lasts a long time (vs. alpine skiing). For us, that may be part of the attraction, but I suspect mass starts are intended by the FIS as a way to overcome the mass ignorance and boredom factors. Gene John Forrest Tomlinson wrote: On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 07:37:41 -0600, Gene Goldenfeld wrote: And because drafting and using the pack is more a factor in ski races, the whole thing risks being a little less interesting for racers and, ultimately, spectators. What evidence do you have for that, other than analogie with basketball? JT **************************** Remove "remove" to reply Visit http://www.jt10000.com **************************** |
#20
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Why is it really inevitable that the races come down to the
last few minutes? An important reason is that the front skier takes the wind AND warms up the snow in the tracks so that the skiers rigt behind get less wind AND faster gliding skis (you often see skiers downhil grabing the skiing pole of the skier ahead of them rather to push up the speed of the front skier rather than having to brake. In the olympic 50 k the other Swedish skiers said that if they felt that they had no chance fighting for the medals but enough power for it, they would burn their last fuell taking the wind for Anders S=F6dergren and pushing up the speed, helping him creating a gap to the others without getting stopped by the headwind and less good gliding skis, now Fredriksson was straong enough to finish 10th (which is pretty close to medal in that kind of long-wait-for-sprint-finish race) and the others weren't strong enough to help Anders pushing up the speed, but perhaps that the necessary tactics for making an erly gap to the others in a mass start race like this one (much like in bicycling): To have one skier who is strong enough to beat the others if he only could have the same headwind and glide as the others for some 10 km or so, and some other skiers (just like in bicycling) whose only task is to take the lead and help this guy creating a gap (thus spoiling their own hances of skiing fast in the end of the race). The downside of having the lead was very apparent in the male sprint, where there was an upphill part, an 180 degree turning point and then downhill down to the finish, and there was a clear advantage NOT to be in the lead when the downhill started because then you get more speed downhill and can start the finish at higher speed, and therefoer in the finals, the skiers almost stopped at the turnaround point. The winner Bj=F6rn Lind said in TV afterwards that he had decided before to not under any circumstances be in the lead when the downhill started and that if necessary, he would have been standing still waiting 10 minutes for one of the other skiers to give up and be the first one to ski downhill if. Now the Italian skier gave after for the pressure, so nobody had to wait that long. / Niklas |
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