Speed: Boards vs. Skis??

On 11/26/10 11:18 AM, Bob F wrote:
VtSkier wrote:
On 11/26/2010 12:35 PM, pigo wrote:
On Nov 26, 9:26 am, wrote:
VtSkier wrote:

I can go across a slope on my edges without turning.
Can't you?

As for the argument at hand.
I once said to a snowboard instructor friend of mine
that skis were always faster than snowboard. We then
did a run from the top of one lift to the bottom of
another on a slope that goes from moderate to fairly
gentle.

He smoked me.

The conditions we
Fresh tune for him
He was 20 years old (I was 60 at the time)
and he was used to going very fast on a board.

I think the question is still up in the air.

I think someone can build a board (say 200cm long)
with other features, like very little sidecut
and a fairly forward stance and carving board
binding with stiff boots and then he might be
able to keep up with task oriented speed skis.
IOW, I think it may be the equipment. 'course
big cojones help too.

I have found that there is always an exception just not necessarily
the rule.
One difference is in the stance of snowboarder vs skier they do
windtunnel testing to find right position of skier for max speed low
drag position. You do not go fast standing up. I can not think of
getting a boarder into a aerodynamic shape with out surgery or
being a double amputee. Also the real speed skiers use aerodynamic
faring on their body and test in windtunnels.- Hide quoted text -

Any efficient skier knows that skis are faster and more manuverable.

In learning to ski the object is to learn to turn. How fast going
"straight down" isn't an issue. Only snowboarders use that "logic".
You can put a brick on any sliding device and achieve that. LOL, they
kinda do!

Well, I think "How fast going 'straight down'" is the
issue of this thread, which is why I said what I did
about speed skiing and speed boarding in another post.

Your notes about boarders going straight down the
mountain is only half of their bad behavior. The other
half is skidding down the mountain on their heel
sides. If they all went straight down like a brick
with p-tex, they wouldn't f**k up the hill so much.
It's the heel-skidders (we call them groomers at
Killington) who make such a mess of the hill.

Since our hill doesn't prohibit snowboarders, I've
learned to put up with them and to find a few (very
few) that are good at and knowledgeable about their
sport. Curiously, I find that group among those who
have decided to snowboard after having skied for a
few years.

IMO, because skiing takes a while to get good at, you
have time to learn safety and etiquette surrounding
the sport. After 3 days of lessons and bumps on the
bunny hill, most snowboarders can take on and heel-
skid down the main mountain, never having learned
anything except how to stand up without being too
badly bruised. They then think they are experts and
can do no wrong.

And I do delight in going to Mad River Glen once in a
while where they DON'T allow snowboards.

When the teenage boys were all on skis, they sideslipped down everything just
like they do now on snowboards. Why blame the device for the actions of the
person. My theory is that Alta and others banned boards JUST to get rid of
teenage boys.

As more teenagers are choosing to ski rather than snowboard, I'm seeing more
skiers sideslipping down slopes they shouldn't be on. It's not the equipment.

Beginner skiers sideslipping the advanced slopes is a result of extended
grooming.

It's difficult to sideslip soft steep snow on the steep using skis -
consequently such off-piste terrain pretty much removes the low skilled
ski set preserving the interesting terrain for the skilled.

Beginning boarders can and do get into stuff they can't ride, sideslip
down those slopes, and ruin the snow for the skilled. Or the better
amoung them make wide sweeping turns down fresh snow fields when
spooning turns harvesting the snow, would allow dozens, maybe hundreds
of skiers and boarders to have a full ride of fresh turns. Wasteful.
Disgraceful. Talentless doofus.

_Tragedy of the Commons_

On Nov 26, 9:35*am, pigo wrote:
On Nov 26, 9:26*am, downhill wrote:





VtSkier wrote:

I can go across a slope on my edges without turning.
Can't you?

As for the argument at hand.
I once said to a snowboard instructor friend of mine
that skis were always faster than snowboard. We then
did a run from the top of one lift to the bottom of
another on a slope that goes from moderate to fairly
gentle.

He smoked me.

The conditions we
Fresh tune for him
He was 20 years old (I was 60 at the time)
and he was used to going very fast on a board.

I think the question is still up in the air.

I think someone can build a board (say 200cm long)
with other features, like very little sidecut
and a fairly forward stance and carving board
binding with stiff boots and then he might be
able to keep up with task oriented speed skis.
IOW, I think it may be the equipment. 'course
big cojones help too.

I have found that there is always an exception just not necessarily the
rule.
One difference is in the stance of snowboarder vs skier they do
windtunnel testing to find right position of skier for max speed low
drag position. You do not go fast standing up. I can not think of
getting a boarder into a aerodynamic shape with out surgery or being a
double amputee. Also the real speed skiers use aerodynamic faring *on
their body and test in windtunnels.- Hide quoted text -

Any efficient skier knows that skis are faster and more manuverable.

In learning to ski the object is to learn to turn. How fast going
"straight down" isn't an issue.

Holy ****, you really are insane. Utterly delusional
Only snowboarders use that "logic".
You can put a brick on any sliding device and achieve that. LOL, they
kinda do!-

Looks like they put a brain damaged guy with a brick for a brain on
skis at Alta.

In article ,
lal_truckee wrote:

On 11/26/10 11:38 AM, snoig wrote:

And here's an interesting link that compares skier X times vs boarder
X times at the Vancouver Olympics. So this is a comparison of similar
levels of skiers and snowboarders.
http://wiki.fisski.com/index.php/Ski..._times,_speeds
_and_percentage_differences_Vancouver_2010

Men's boarder X times are about 90% of skier X times.
Women's boarder X times are about 85% of skier X times.

IIRC the course sets favored boarders - they use those leaning gates
which offered no obstacle, whereas skiers had to deal with vertical
gates which should be an advantage to boarders. In spite of it skier
times are still better.

Actually, he simple got his figures backwards.

Fastest down the course was men's ski-cross at 72.73 seconds. Second
fastest was...

....*women's* ski-cross at 77.52 seconds.

Men's snowboard-cross was slower than women's ski-cross.

"Event Time(sec) Time diff.(sec) Speed(m/s) Speed diff.(m/s)

Men's SX 72.73 - 15.73 -
Ladies SX 77.52 4.79 14.76 -0.97
Men's SBX 80.93 8.20 14.14 -1.59
Ladies SBX 85.76 13.03 13.34 -2.39

Data

The official results from the qualification phase for each competition
was used.

The time is shown in seconds and 100's of a second.

The top five ranked competitors time, in the qualifications, were made
into an average time for each event.

In snowboard Cross each competitors takes two runs. The best time was
used and averaged.

In Ski Cross, each competitor takes 1 run and the time 5 best times were
averaged.

The velocity in 'meters per second' was determined by taking the average
time and then dividing it by the course length."

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg

On Nov 26, 9:52*am, VtSkier wrote:
As for aerodynamics and the testing of skiers in a
wind tunnel, I'm sure, if it hasn't been done yet, it
will be done with boarders.

Are you so ****ing ignorant that you don't know they have been doing
wind tunnel testing since the sixties?
Yeah, you're that ignorant.
Hey, still waiting for the nutcase to shoot me. You know, the one who
threatened my life and asked where I lived, and you posted my home
address?
That's a death threat, dumb****. No wonder you will never stand in
front of me and spew your ****. Because I have no legal restrictions
on what I can do, and you'e a coward.

lal_truckee wrote:
On 11/26/10 11:18 AM, Bob F wrote:
VtSkier wrote:
On 11/26/2010 12:35 PM, pigo wrote:
On Nov 26, 9:26 am, wrote:
VtSkier wrote:

I can go across a slope on my edges without turning.
Can't you?

As for the argument at hand.
I once said to a snowboard instructor friend of mine
that skis were always faster than snowboard. We then
did a run from the top of one lift to the bottom of
another on a slope that goes from moderate to fairly
gentle.

He smoked me.

The conditions we
Fresh tune for him
He was 20 years old (I was 60 at the time)
and he was used to going very fast on a board.

I think the question is still up in the air.

I think someone can build a board (say 200cm long)
with other features, like very little sidecut
and a fairly forward stance and carving board
binding with stiff boots and then he might be
able to keep up with task oriented speed skis.
IOW, I think it may be the equipment. 'course
big cojones help too.

I have found that there is always an exception just not
necessarily the rule.
One difference is in the stance of snowboarder vs skier they do
windtunnel testing to find right position of skier for max speed
low drag position. You do not go fast standing up. I can not
think of getting a boarder into a aerodynamic shape with out
surgery or being a double amputee. Also the real speed skiers use
aerodynamic faring on their body and test in windtunnels.- Hide
quoted text -

Any efficient skier knows that skis are faster and more
manuverable. In learning to ski the object is to learn to turn. How fast
going
"straight down" isn't an issue. Only snowboarders use that "logic".
You can put a brick on any sliding device and achieve that. LOL,
they kinda do!

Well, I think "How fast going 'straight down'" is the
issue of this thread, which is why I said what I did
about speed skiing and speed boarding in another post.

Your notes about boarders going straight down the
mountain is only half of their bad behavior. The other
half is skidding down the mountain on their heel
sides. If they all went straight down like a brick
with p-tex, they wouldn't f**k up the hill so much.
It's the heel-skidders (we call them groomers at
Killington) who make such a mess of the hill.

Since our hill doesn't prohibit snowboarders, I've
learned to put up with them and to find a few (very
few) that are good at and knowledgeable about their
sport. Curiously, I find that group among those who
have decided to snowboard after having skied for a
few years.

IMO, because skiing takes a while to get good at, you
have time to learn safety and etiquette surrounding
the sport. After 3 days of lessons and bumps on the
bunny hill, most snowboarders can take on and heel-
skid down the main mountain, never having learned
anything except how to stand up without being too
badly bruised. They then think they are experts and
can do no wrong.

And I do delight in going to Mad River Glen once in a
while where they DON'T allow snowboards.

When the teenage boys were all on skis, they sideslipped down
everything just like they do now on snowboards. Why blame the device
for the actions of the person. My theory is that Alta and others
banned boards JUST to get rid of teenage boys.

As more teenagers are choosing to ski rather than snowboard, I'm
seeing more skiers sideslipping down slopes they shouldn't be on.
It's not the equipment.

Beginner skiers sideslipping the advanced slopes is a result of
extended grooming.

It's difficult to sideslip soft steep snow on the steep using skis -
consequently such off-piste terrain pretty much removes the low
skilled ski set preserving the interesting terrain for the skilled.

And again, it mostly teenagers that repeatedly get onto slopes they can't
handle. Watch for them on those steep narrow runs under the chair. Wher there's
little room to turn. Snowboard, ski - it's the teenagers (or kids) that you see
sideslipping. That's just what kids do.

I NEVER taught my snowboard students to sideslip for this very reason. It just
enables them to scrape down slopes rather than ride down. Sure, they'll figure
it out for themselves oh too soon.



Beginning boarders can and do get into stuff they can't ride, sideslip
down those slopes, and ruin the snow for the skilled. Or the better
amoung them make wide sweeping turns down fresh snow fields when
spooning turns harvesting the snow, would allow dozens, maybe hundreds
of skiers and boarders to have a full ride of fresh turns. Wasteful.
Disgraceful. Talentless doofus.

_Tragedy of the Commons_

Are you calling me a doofus? I'm not the ones you are complaining about. I don't
do that. I'd much rather link tight turns through the powder or the bumps.

lal_truckee wrote:
On 11/26/10 10:58 AM, downhill wrote:
VtSkier wrote:

boarder.


I don't doubt that.

There have been speed skiers since about 1860. There
has been a lot of development since then. I still think
you'll see the gap narrow. Will a boarder ever beat a
a skier in timed trials? I don't know, but it will be
interesting to watch them try. and you know they will
try.

As for aerodynamics and the testing of skiers in a
wind tunnel, I'm sure, if it hasn't been done yet, it
will be done with boarders.

the tear drop shape is most aerodynamic the tuck gets close to that,
at least a lot closer than any shape I have seen a boarder in.

Also the speed trial boarders (riffing from posted video) seem to be
mounting hard shell bindings nearly parallel to the board but slightly
offset to avoid being taken for a monoskier. Convergence. I think a
modified tele binding for the rear boot would allow a tuck. Equipment
evolution is obviously still very young.

Snowboarders need the connection to the edge on both feet. A loose heel won't
cut it. Maybe with a wedge under the rear binding.

snoig wrote:
I was wondering; given the same snow and path; which is faster
Skis or Snowboards?

I've read somewhere, there used to have the mixed skiing and
snowboarding "king of the mountain" competition in Europe (more
likely in France, iirc) some years ago, snowboarders beat skiers
every time; that's why there only separated skierX and
snowboarderX competitions nowadays.

No, it's the other way round. The skiers always beat the
snowboarders. I have a couple of friends who competed back in the
day. The skiers didn't just beat the snowboarders, they smoked them.

That's what you say; nevertheless, the one I've read was another
person's saying, blah, blah, blah, same as you are. Really, they are
just people saying, I don't think either is true. But I think that as
snowboards can carve a fairly straight line (and skis have to turn to
carve), snowboards would be faster than skis.

Yes, that's what I say and that's what my co-worker who actually
competed in boarder x in the X-games says. We've had this
conversation before. As opposed to what you say, a known troll who
has frequently been proved wrong. Just like when you claimed that
Olympic downhill courses were mainly set on blue runs. Do you still
claim that b.s.?

This is just another example of how little you know about skiing and
snowboarding.

On absolute terms skis are faster (check out Derby de la Meije
times for proof), but snowboards may be faster on average in some
terrain (powder, near-endless vertical) as less they require less
energy expenditure from the rider and therefore less stops.

Given how snowboarders can break a carving on a dime, which gives
them the agility and confidence to run at the higher speed, I
think that snowboards are faster than skis in general sliding
environments.

snowbender

Well that's another area where you would be wrong but my guess is
you're just spewing misinformation just to be a troll.

Same as the misinformation you're spewing, are you not a troll?

And what misinformation is that? That skis are faster than
snowboards? The world ski/snowboard speed records prove my point
without a doubt. You can argue all you want but once again, you are
wrong.

On the mountains you'd occasional see people bomb down the groomed
runs, snowboarders were almost always faster.

No, they are not. You are misinformed as usual.

Just try doing this google search: skis vs snowboards speed

Just point out to me one example where someone even claims snowboards
are faster.

And here's an interesting link that compares skier X times vs boarder
X times at the Vancouver Olympics. So this is a comparison of similar
levels of skiers and snowboarders.
http://wiki.fisski.com/index.php/Ski...Vancouver_2010

Men's boarder X times are about 90% of skier X times.
Women's boarder X times are about 85% of skier X times.

So, you have been proven wrong! You can either admit it or just keep
spewing your bull**** and look like an idiot. I think we all know the
path you will take.

I bet you're right on this one.

On 11/26/2010 02:04 PM, pigo wrote:
On Nov 26, 11:11 am, wrote:

Well, I think "How fast going 'straight down'" is the
issue of this thread, which is why I said what I did
about speed skiing and speed boarding in another post.

Well that's really the only way to establish apples to apples isn't
it. Even running the same course seems like it would have advantages
depending on who set it. Though I have a hard time imagining a boarder
ever being faster except for in a straight down, difficult snow,
condition where not uncrossing tips could spell disaster.

Your notes about boarders going straight down the
mountain is only half of their bad behavior. The other
half is skidding down the mountain on their heel
sides. If they all went straight down like a brick
with p-tex, they wouldn't f**k up the hill so much.
It's the heel-skidders (we call them groomers at
Killington) who make such a mess of the hill.

The going straight down isn't as bad as the lack of control as they do
it. I could tuck and go straight or super-g an entire run in 3-4
turns. But I had 4 edges. All easily at hand for minor adjustment thru
major course changes. A snowboards 2 edges are a foot apart and
require a full swing of the body to the other side to get any sort of
change at all. By someone good at it! And they are going backwards
half of the time!

Flattening the snow is the reason I don't ski where they are allowed.
I can deal with their recklessness. It's the women and children that
are usually the victims of the "snowboard (wannabe) thugs".

Since our hill doesn't prohibit snowboarders, I've
learned to put up with them and to find a few (very
few) that are good at and knowledgeable about their
sport. Curiously, I find that group among those who
have decided to snowboard after having skied for a
few years.

See above. Exception/rule.

IMO, because skiing takes a while to get good at, you
have time to learn safety and etiquette surrounding
the sport. After 3 days of lessons and bumps on the
bunny hill, most snowboarders can take on and heel-
skid down the main mountain, never having learned
anything except how to stand up without being too
badly bruised. They then think they are experts and
can do no wrong.

And I do delight in going to Mad River Glen once in a
while where they DON'T allow snowboards.

Preaching/choir :-)

Yeah, I know.

On 11/26/2010 02:18 PM, Bob F wrote:
VtSkier wrote:
On 11/26/2010 12:35 PM, pigo wrote:
On Nov 26, 9:26 am, wrote:
VtSkier wrote:

I can go across a slope on my edges without turning.
Can't you?

As for the argument at hand.
I once said to a snowboard instructor friend of mine
that skis were always faster than snowboard. We then
did a run from the top of one lift to the bottom of
another on a slope that goes from moderate to fairly
gentle.

He smoked me.

The conditions we
Fresh tune for him
He was 20 years old (I was 60 at the time)
and he was used to going very fast on a board.

I think the question is still up in the air.

I think someone can build a board (say 200cm long)
with other features, like very little sidecut
and a fairly forward stance and carving board
binding with stiff boots and then he might be
able to keep up with task oriented speed skis.
IOW, I think it may be the equipment. 'course
big cojones help too.

I have found that there is always an exception just not necessarily
the rule.
One difference is in the stance of snowboarder vs skier they do
windtunnel testing to find right position of skier for max speed low
drag position. You do not go fast standing up. I can not think of
getting a boarder into a aerodynamic shape with out surgery or
being a double amputee. Also the real speed skiers use aerodynamic
faring on their body and test in windtunnels.- Hide quoted text -

Any efficient skier knows that skis are faster and more manuverable.

In learning to ski the object is to learn to turn. How fast going
"straight down" isn't an issue. Only snowboarders use that "logic".
You can put a brick on any sliding device and achieve that. LOL, they
kinda do!

Well, I think "How fast going 'straight down'" is the
issue of this thread, which is why I said what I did
about speed skiing and speed boarding in another post.

Your notes about boarders going straight down the
mountain is only half of their bad behavior. The other
half is skidding down the mountain on their heel
sides. If they all went straight down like a brick
with p-tex, they wouldn't f**k up the hill so much.
It's the heel-skidders (we call them groomers at
Killington) who make such a mess of the hill.

Since our hill doesn't prohibit snowboarders, I've
learned to put up with them and to find a few (very
few) that are good at and knowledgeable about their
sport. Curiously, I find that group among those who
have decided to snowboard after having skied for a
few years.

IMO, because skiing takes a while to get good at, you
have time to learn safety and etiquette surrounding
the sport. After 3 days of lessons and bumps on the
bunny hill, most snowboarders can take on and heel-
skid down the main mountain, never having learned
anything except how to stand up without being too
badly bruised. They then think they are experts and
can do no wrong.

And I do delight in going to Mad River Glen once in a
while where they DON'T allow snowboards.

When the teenage boys were all on skis, they sideslipped down everything just
like they do now on snowboards. Why blame the device for the actions of the
person. My theory is that Alta and others banned boards JUST to get rid of
teenage boys.

As more teenagers are choosing to ski rather than snowboard, I'm seeing more
skiers sideslipping down slopes they shouldn't be on. It's not the equipment.

Observe a bit more. EVERYBODY (who skis) does a chicken
plow down when they are in over their head. However, I'd
like to point out that it takes a while (considerably
longer than 3 days) to master a chicken plow that will
safely get you off, oh say, Lower Ovation at Killington.

The dude who is halfway athletic and has the young person's
attitude of invulnerability who is on a snowboard wouldn't
have much trouble at all heel-skidding down Lower O after
3 days of some instruction and experience. The skier, even
the invulnerable young person with half a year experience
(oh, say 15 days) will have jelly for legs at the end
of the session and probably won't do it again for several more
years. The snowboarder will think he has had a great time
and will do it again at 4PM while we watch.

So yeah, given similar techniques to achieve the same goal
(side-slipping -or- heel skidding) down a difficult slope
because you don't have other skills to do it "right", it's
easier on a board. A lot easier, and kinder to your body
too. So to some extent it is the equipment.

For those of you who ski RealSnow(tm) and don't partake
of our EasternFirm(tm) Lower Ovation is about a half-mile
long at a pretty constant pitch of about 40 degrees. It is
often bumpy and/or icy. Vertigo is steeper, but its steep
sections are very much shorter, no more than a quarter
mile each with the top drop only being over 40 degrees.

On 11/26/2010 02:51 PM, Ted Waldron wrote:
In ,
wrote:

As for aerodynamics and the testing of skiers in a
wind tunnel, I'm sure, if it hasn't been done yet, it
will be done with boarders.

There is a difference between a wind tunnel test of a boarder in
aerodynamic position with the lowest drag coefficient possible, and
trying to control a snowboard in that the same position on a speed
course.

I don't see boarders going much faster than the 200kph, but they can't
control their board at that speeds, and they need to get ouf of crouch
with more drag to control their board. Their center of gravity is much
higher than a speed skier.

We'll see. I've made my prediction, which is that the
speed gap between skiers and snowboarders will narrow
as time goes on. Whether or not, in a time trial, a
snowboarder actually goes faster than a skier is up
for grabs. I'm only predicting that the gap will narrow.