Speed: Boards vs. Skis??

On 11/26/2010 04:29 PM, pigo wrote:
On Nov 26, 2:15 pm, wrote:

For those of you who ski RealSnow(tm) and don't partake
of our EasternFirm(tm) Lower Ovation is about a half-mile
long at a pretty constant pitch of about 40 degrees. It is
often bumpy and/or icy. Vertigo is steeper, but its steep
sections are very much shorter, no more than a quarter
mile each with the top drop only being over 40 degrees.

A High Rustler?

?

On 11/26/2010 04:32 PM, Bob F wrote:
VtSkier wrote:
And I do delight in going to Mad River Glen once in a
while where they DON'T allow snowboards.

When the teenage boys were all on skis, they sideslipped down
everything just like they do now on snowboards. Why blame the device
for the actions of the person. My theory is that Alta and others
banned boards JUST to get rid of teenage boys.

As more teenagers are choosing to ski rather than snowboard, I'm
seeing more skiers sideslipping down slopes they shouldn't be on.
It's not the equipment.

Observe a bit more. EVERYBODY (who skis) does a chicken
plow down when they are in over their head. However, I'd
like to point out that it takes a while (considerably
longer than 3 days) to master a chicken plow that will
safely get you off, oh say, Lower Ovation at Killington.

The dude who is halfway athletic and has the young person's
attitude of invulnerability who is on a snowboard wouldn't
have much trouble at all heel-skidding down Lower O after
3 days of some instruction and experience. The skier, even
the invulnerable young person with half a year experience
(oh, say 15 days) will have jelly for legs at the end
of the session and probably won't do it again for several more
years. The snowboarder will think he has had a great time
and will do it again at 4PM while we watch.

I see plenty of skiers in similar circumstances side slipping. Don't tell me you
never do. If you say so, you aren't looking. It certainly has been going on
since the 60's and before.

Since long before. And certainly I've done it. And I've
been scared doing it when I got in over my head but with
enough experience to know how to do it. My point was that
it's easier for a snowboarder to heel-skid and to be able
to do so with very much less experience than it takes for
a skier to sideslip effectively. Further, I stated that
an inexperienced snowboarder will think he's having fun
when he heelskids down a steep slope while the skier
KNOWS he's in trouble when he sideslips down a steep slope.
The snowboarder is likely to go back and do it again while
the skier is not.

Further. Have you noticed who is sideslipping down those
steep slopes on a regular basis? I'll tell you who,
dedicated bump skiers, that's who. Dedicated bump skis
are so old-school that carving a turn is clearly a joke.

We have bump competitions here on a regular basis. We
hold them on Outer Limits. Frequently the bump course
which is seeded by a special machine and then brought
up to competition specs by allowing good (the likes of
Donna Weinbrecht) to ski them for a couple days. This
course is usually set at the bottom third to one half
of the trail. Above that it is often groomed and slicked
up by snowboarders and skiers sideslipping. Why do they
sideslip? Because they have dedicated bump skis on.

Short, narrow, little side cut and pretty soft. Carve
a turn with those? I don't think so. They sideslip
at fairly high speed because they are not inexperienced
skiers in over their heads. It's just more efficient
getting down to the course.

On Nov 26, 3:44*pm, VtSkier wrote:

A High Rustler?

?

http://www.skidestinationsllc.com/

On 11/26/10 2:44 PM, VtSkier wrote:
On 11/26/2010 04:29 PM, pigo wrote:
On Nov 26, 2:15 pm, wrote:

For those of you who ski RealSnow(tm) and don't partake
of our EasternFirm(tm) Lower Ovation is about a half-mile
long at a pretty constant pitch of about 40 degrees. It is
often bumpy and/or icy. Vertigo is steeper, but its steep
sections are very much shorter, no more than a quarter
mile each with the top drop only being over 40 degrees.

A High Rustler?

?

Allusion to an Alta run/lift IIRC, of some challenge.

On 11/26/2010 06:35 PM, lal_truckee wrote:
On 11/26/10 2:44 PM, VtSkier wrote:
On 11/26/2010 04:29 PM, pigo wrote:
On Nov 26, 2:15 pm, wrote:

For those of you who ski RealSnow(tm) and don't partake
of our EasternFirm(tm) Lower Ovation is about a half-mile
long at a pretty constant pitch of about 40 degrees. It is
often bumpy and/or icy. Vertigo is steeper, but its steep
sections are very much shorter, no more than a quarter
mile each with the top drop only being over 40 degrees.

A High Rustler?

?

Allusion to an Alta run/lift IIRC, of some challenge.

Thanks.
I don't think Ovation is that long. The picture
Pigo sent looked to be about a mile. Say the
length top to bottom of Cascade/Flume at K but
with a consistent pitch.

The consistent pitch part of Ovation is only
about a 1/2 mile. The middle section is very mellow
unless they don't groom, then it's a mine field.
The top drop is called a cliff. It's a drop of
maybe 8 feet to another mine field of bumps which
is almost never groomed and almost never open.

Bob F wrote:



I see plenty of skiers in similar circumstances side slipping. Don't tell me you
never do. If you say so, you aren't looking. It certainly has been going on
since the 60's and before.


I side slip the training course after it gets mucked up, it is brutal on
the knees. I avoid side slipping when possible.

downhill wrote:
Bob F wrote:



I see plenty of skiers in similar circumstances side slipping. Don't
tell me you never do. If you say so, you aren't looking. It
certainly has been going on since the 60's and before.


I side slip the training course after it gets mucked up, it is brutal
on the knees. I avoid side slipping when possible.

LOL! There you go.

On 11/26/2010 07:18 PM, Ted Waldron wrote:
In ,
wrote:

On 11/26/10 10:58 AM, downhill wrote:
VtSkier wrote:

boarder.


I don't doubt that.

There have been speed skiers since about 1860. There
has been a lot of development since then. I still think
you'll see the gap narrow. Will a boarder ever beat a
a skier in timed trials? I don't know, but it will be
interesting to watch them try. and you know they will
try.

As for aerodynamics and the testing of skiers in a
wind tunnel, I'm sure, if it hasn't been done yet, it
will be done with boarders.

the tear drop shape is most aerodynamic the tuck gets close to that, at
least a lot closer than any shape I have seen a boarder in.

Also the speed trial boarders (riffing from posted video) seem to be
mounting hard shell bindings nearly parallel to the board but slightly
offset to avoid being taken for a monoskier. Convergence. I think a
modified tele binding for the rear boot would allow a tuck. Equipment
evolution is obviously still very young.

A free heel on the back binding wouldn't work, because you are
sacrificing any sort of edge control/board control for a lower center of
gravity. The control goes from the entire foot to just to the tip of
the boot/front part of the foot, just for a lower drag coefficienct. It
is sort of like taking out some of the steering, or part of the steering
wheel in order for the car to be more aerodynamic.

When a tele skier pivots for his turn, he has the same control, and now
a longer edge for for his turn, besides the balance is counteracted by
the other free heel, with the movement set up to have the heel free.
Just having one open heal, or some sort range of motion in the back heel
of a snowboard, would difficult to control, especially at high speeds.

Hey, check out the video links I posted. It looks
fun to me, down through the trees and all.

On 11/26/2010 07:48 PM, Ted Waldron wrote:
In ,
wrote:

On 11/26/2010 03:46 PM, Bob F wrote:
lal_truckee wrote:
On 11/26/10 10:58 AM, downhill wrote:
VtSkier wrote:

boarder.


I don't doubt that.

There have been speed skiers since about 1860. There
has been a lot of development since then. I still think
you'll see the gap narrow. Will a boarder ever beat a
a skier in timed trials? I don't know, but it will be
interesting to watch them try. and you know they will
try.

As for aerodynamics and the testing of skiers in a
wind tunnel, I'm sure, if it hasn't been done yet, it
will be done with boarders.

the tear drop shape is most aerodynamic the tuck gets close to that,
at least a lot closer than any shape I have seen a boarder in.

Also the speed trial boarders (riffing from posted video) seem to be
mounting hard shell bindings nearly parallel to the board but slightly
offset to avoid being taken for a monoskier. Convergence. I think a
modified tele binding for the rear boot would allow a tuck. Equipment
evolution is obviously still very young.

Snowboarders need the connection to the edge on both feet. A loose heel
won't
cut it. Maybe with a wedge under the rear binding.

Bob,
Are you familiar with tele-boarding?
http://www.teleboardusa.com/teleboarding.shtml
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in1c6bB4b5M

Oh come on Senor VTSKier, that is a little duplicitous of you. The
discussion is if a snowboarder can maintain a board at high speeds with
with a limited range or free heel binding for the back foot.

"Teleboarding" isn't snowboarding. I saw the videos. As a tele skier, I
notice their set up was more of a tele set up on a mono ski. That is a
tele stance, not a snowboarder's stance

The big give away that this isn't snowboarding is these things that
tele skiers call poles.

His stance is a basically a telemark ski stance, which is fine, and his
weight shifting and pole planting is just a telly ski technique. He is
just shifting his weight on a monoski. Pole plant, weight shift,
anticipating next turn, pole plant, repeat.....


If the "Teleboarder" was going down a speed course, this tuck with a be
off a kilter or two, and would be having problems with his control on
his left side because of his stance. He basically have to get out of his
tuck and shift his weight for control. Which is going to be difficult
going at high speeds


This tele-boarding thing might be something I'd try.

Screw that, come to the dark side. Get 4 edges instead of two. Rent
some tele skis when you come out to Mt. Baker and ski around Chair 8. or
rent some when you go to Inland BC for a power day.

Smile
Send me your contact info off group
mistypndATvermontelDOTnet and unmunge
and I'll contact you when next going to Baker.
Probably in 2012 since we are only doing one
ski vacation this season.

On 11/26/2010 07:48 PM, Ted Waldron wrote:
In ,
wrote:

On 11/26/2010 03:46 PM, Bob F wrote:
lal_truckee wrote:
On 11/26/10 10:58 AM, downhill wrote:
VtSkier wrote:

boarder.


I don't doubt that.

There have been speed skiers since about 1860. There
has been a lot of development since then. I still think
you'll see the gap narrow. Will a boarder ever beat a
a skier in timed trials? I don't know, but it will be
interesting to watch them try. and you know they will
try.

As for aerodynamics and the testing of skiers in a
wind tunnel, I'm sure, if it hasn't been done yet, it
will be done with boarders.

the tear drop shape is most aerodynamic the tuck gets close to that,
at least a lot closer than any shape I have seen a boarder in.

Also the speed trial boarders (riffing from posted video) seem to be
mounting hard shell bindings nearly parallel to the board but slightly
offset to avoid being taken for a monoskier. Convergence. I think a
modified tele binding for the rear boot would allow a tuck. Equipment
evolution is obviously still very young.

Snowboarders need the connection to the edge on both feet. A loose heel
won't
cut it. Maybe with a wedge under the rear binding.

Bob,
Are you familiar with tele-boarding?
http://www.teleboardusa.com/teleboarding.shtml
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in1c6bB4b5M

Oh come on Senor VTSKier, that is a little duplicitous of you. The
discussion is if a snowboarder can maintain a board at high speeds with
with a limited range or free heel binding for the back foot.

"Teleboarding" isn't snowboarding. I saw the videos. As a tele skier, I
notice their set up was more of a tele set up on a mono ski. That is a
tele stance, not a snowboarder's stance

The big give away that this isn't snowboarding is these things that
tele skiers call poles.

His stance is a basically a telemark ski stance, which is fine, and his
weight shifting and pole planting is just a telly ski technique. He is
just shifting his weight on a monoski. Pole plant, weight shift,
anticipating next turn, pole plant, repeat.....


If the "Teleboarder" was going down a speed course, this tuck with a be
off a kilter or two, and would be having problems with his control on
his left side because of his stance. He basically have to get out of his
tuck and shift his weight for control. Which is going to be difficult
going at high speeds


This tele-boarding thing might be something I'd try.

Screw that, come to the dark side. Get 4 edges instead of two. Rent
some tele skis when you come out to Mt. Baker and ski around Chair 8. or
rent some when you go to Inland BC for a power day.

and besides, I can troll a little if I want to.